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Thread: AR15s......... Pros and Cons

  1. #81
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
    The AR15 becomes unwieldy with a barrel over 24 inches. Another thing a 26 or 28 inch barrel puts a tremendous amount of stress on that little frail upper receiver and barrel nut. Not a good idea.
    The match profile barrels are turned thinner than a bull barrel which is a common long barrel. Which is why I linked to it.
    I put my 20” Bull on one of those thick uppers with no forward assist or dust cover. As far as unwieldy. Well that depends upon how you plan to shoot it. Bull barrel in 20” does swing slow. Thinking it may be about the same as a 26” match as far as balance. Never had them side by side to compare. Friend had a 26” bull. Was so muzzle heavy he placed one of the lead wedge weights in the but-stock to bring center of gravity back. Think it was under fifteen pounds. It just went form the pickup to a portable bench. Shot nice but my 26” barrel bolt gun would out range it by fifty to one hundred yards. Shooting prairie dogs. Not sure why.

    The auto load cycle does not help me a bit out prairie dog shooting. I've two daughters and AR's make great lady's guns.

  2. #82
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    dont you use ear protection. I find a 16 inch 308 not a bit tougher to shoot then a 24 inch with good ear protection. If in a firefight id gladly put up with noise of a 16 inch gun vs the weight and clumsyness of a 24 inch ar. Id bet 90 percent of the guys on this fourm have a bit of tentis. Mostly from the fact alot of us are old and back when we started shooting nobody thought to use ear protection. I doubt anymore i shoot 6 shots a year without them. A 308 to me in a bolt gun is a gun that should be short and light. The 308 is realitivly effecient in a short barrel and has vertually no recoil so weight sure isnt a problem. In an ar10 with a 16 inch barrel the 308 is about like shooting a a mild 250 savage load out of a bolt. If im going to tote around a 8lb 24 inch bolt gun i wouldnt waste my time with a 308. I step up to at least a 06 and even that has no place in a barrel longer then 22 in my opinion. 24 inch barrels are for varmit guns and magnums and for a hunter that rides around in a truck. I hunt in the woods and walk most of the day and will gladly give up a few fps and put up with a little more noise to be able to carry a trim little rifle that weights 2 or 3 lbs less. I carried my 16 inch ar10 last deer season and it got to be a pain in the but. Nice gun but to heavy for a deer rifle.
    Quote Originally Posted by GabbyM View Post
    To anyone thinking about a 16 or 18 inch barrel 308 caliber rifle. I would highly suggest you try shooting one first. I don't like short barrels on a rifle anyway just from a ballistics point. But I've fired a Remington 660 IIRC with short vent rib barrel. Was the nastiest firearm I've shot in my life. Flame out the barrel for a distance measured in feet not inches.

    When Springfield Armory came out with the Tanker M1. Gun mags had a few articles on it. Seams the US Army did test a short barrel M1. Was rejected due to excessive muzzle blast of the short barrel. I completely concur with the army's decision from back then.

    I'd never personally own or even shoot a 308 with a barrel of less than 22” and I'd never buy one under 24”. You need the weight out on the end to keep the gun down under recoil anyway.

    I have tenitis (ringing of the ears). Have been told by doctors it only takes nine shots from loud guns to cause this. Like a big revolver out the window of a pickup truck where the blast comes back at you like you have a bucket over your head.
    Last edited by Lloyd Smale; 06-23-2010 at 07:04 AM.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd Smale View Post
    dont you use ear protection. I find a 16 inch 308 not a bit tougher to shoot then a 24 inch with good ear protection. If in a firefight id gladly put up with noise of a 16 inch gun vs the weight and clumsyness of a 24 inch ar. Id bet 90 percent of the guys on this fourm have a bit of tentis. Mostly from the fact alot of us are old and back when we started shooting nobody thought to use ear protection. I doubt anymore i shoot 6 shots a year without them. A 308 to me in a bolt gun is a gun that should be short and light. The 308 is realitivly effecient in a short barrel and has vertually no recoil so weight sure isnt a problem. In an ar10 with a 16 inch barrel the 308 is about like shooting a a mild 250 savage load out of a bolt. If im going to tote around a 8lb 24 inch bolt gun i wouldnt waste my time with a 308. I step up to at least a 06 and even that has no place in a barrel longer then 22 in my opinion. 24 inch barrels are for varmit guns and magnums and for a hunter that rides around in a truck. I hunt in the woods and walk most of the day and will gladly give up a few fps and put up with a little more noise to be able to carry a trim little rifle that weights 2 or 3 lbs less. I carried my 16 inch ar10 last deer season and it got to be a pain in the but. Nice gun but to heavy for a deer rifle.
    but lloyd...
    who makes a mag fed(20 /24 rds) 30'06 in a 8 lb rifle ??
    i see no need for a 16" 308... a 20 works just fine..and a 24 even better.
    i have 2 24" 308 ar10's both are tack drivers.....( one is a dedicated br gun, the other is a long range gun)
    i'll take an ar15 platform over an ar10 in a short range fire fight..just cause of the mag capacity and such things as the 6.8.........223 with a 77.........

    but i also thought a 14.5 was silly on an ar...but in 3 rd burst it puts 3 on a man sized target at 100...so who knows.....

    mike in co
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabbyM View Post
    The match profile barrels are turned thinner than a bull barrel which is a common long barrel. Which is why I linked to it.
    I put my 20” Bull on one of those thick uppers with no forward assist or dust cover. As far as unwieldy. Well that depends upon how you plan to shoot it. Bull barrel in 20” does swing slow. Thinking it may be about the same as a 26” match as far as balance. Never had them side by side to compare. Friend had a 26” bull. Was so muzzle heavy he placed one of the lead wedge weights in the but-stock to bring center of gravity back. Think it was under fifteen pounds. It just went form the pickup to a portable bench. Shot nice but my 26” barrel bolt gun would out range it by fifty to one hundred yards. Shooting prairie dogs. Not sure why.

    The auto load cycle does not help me a bit out prairie dog shooting. I've two daughters and AR's make great lady's guns.
    There is still a lot of leverage on that receiver extension on the upper receiver. Have anyone weighed a flat top upper receiver, just the receiver itself? It amazes me they can even hold an AR15 together alone support a long barrel whether it's a thin profile or not.

    I'm just telling you what he experts have to say about the real long barrels. They also claim the should be benched too to help the receiver support that weight. Alexander Arms Loc-Tite's their barrel nut and barrel extension.

  5. #85
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
    There is still a lot of leverage on that receiver extension on the upper receiver. Have anyone weighed a flat top upper receiver, just the receiver itself? It amazes me they can even hold an AR15 together alone support a long barrel whether it's a thin profile or not.

    I'm just telling you what he experts have to say about the real long barrels. They also claim the should be benched too to help the receiver support that weight. Alexander Arms Loc-Tite's their barrel nut and barrel extension.
    https://www.dpmsinc.com/store/produc...d=821&cat=1704

    That's the receiver I used. A DPMS Low Pro. I think it's overkill on weight and probably will end up wishing I had a dust cover. I run a brass deflector on it that clamps over the rail to pile the brass up neat.

    I've never heard of an AR coming apart at the barrel nut or any issues with receiver flex. I do not consider the extension or barrel nut to be a week link. I could be missing something as shooters likely don't go around bragging on how there rifle came apart on them. Have heard of all sorts of parts coming loose from poor assembly. If a barrel nut were to fail I'd chalk it up to someone striping it's threads. I've worked with dozens of men who would strip all the 3/4” calmp bolts on a milling machine holding fixture in a single shift. I can guarantee you those boys would mess up an AR assembly evey single time over and over again.

    Personally I'd rather have a thin 20” barrel than a fat 16” barrel. I've no plans of attaching a bayonet to break steel banding off crates. DPMS list there A1 upper complete for $444. IIRC that plastic lower complete with but stock was $129 so $563 retail total plus shipping. One of my local gun shops had Stag rifles for a bit over that price. For a shorter barrel you can get a post ban without the almost useless flash hider.

    For law enforcement, kicking down doors and especially hand cuffing perps a shorty would indeed be handy. but I have absolutely zero ambition to do any of that. For a long barrel rifle I would just use a bolt action like I have. But many shooters want both the long gun and auto load. I've never seen a long AR that would shoot with a good bolt gun of the same weight. Seen a bunch of guys try to do it.

  6. #86
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    Gabby,

    Next time you have a stripped upper receiver measure the thickness of that thread extension. Just to give you an idea how soft that area is when one is torquing the barrel nut on and doesn't lube the face of the barrel flange that the nut bears against it creates friction which results in the barrel trying to turn. The indexing pin on the barrel extension purpose is not to prevent that, but to index the barrel...that is the gas port at dean 12 o'clock and the front sight. So what happens the index pin indents that fragile and thin threaded extension. The extension is soft and frail.

    You're welcome to your own opinions. I'm merely giving you the real facts so that you can decide upon them.

    You haven't worked with enough AR 15's if you haven't seen a barrel nut or barrel come loose.

    Let me ask you this. How many barrels have you seen that unscrewed from the barrel extension by someone removing the flash hider improperly?

  7. #87
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    Having not only shot but stood beside someone who was shooting a very short barreled (muzzle was right in front of the gas port) for about 40 rounds of M80 and M118 I have to say the experience was not pleasant and it was down right distracting. Not only the immensley increased muzzle blast noise (I was wearing both plugs and muffs and was still flinching) but the concusion was fierce also. This was at Campbell Barracks with the Australian SAS back in the '80s. The SAS boys did not care for it at all and said shooting it indoors was like being in the same room when a flash/bang went off, not pleasant at all.

    Now back before SA brought out the "bush" rifle I shortened an M1A barrel to 18" and remounted the flash suppressor. I also bedded it into a GI fiberglass stock with the butt plate removed and a recoil pad installed. The rifle weighed right at 8 lbs with a 10 round mag. Attached is me with it (on right holding coyote). It was a handy rifle for getting in and out of the jeep but I never found it to be really any better than the standard M1A with 22" barrel. I shot the barrel out (a little over 8,000 rounds) and put a standard M14 barrel back on it. That works just as well for me.

    I also, about the same time I did the above, shortened an '06 bolt action from 24 to 20". I hunted many years with that rifle and found it fine (it also had an M14 flash suppressor on it so the muzzle blast wasn't too bad). However, my two current '06s have 24" barrels which I prefer. I also have a couple 22 and 24" barreled .308s (have a 26 and 27.5" ones too) and find them every bit as handy in "the tick stuff o" of the PNW rain forrests as any shorter barreled rifle. I find little difference between my 20" barreled M94 and my 24" barrled M94AE either.

    I guess being raised hunting in the "thick stuff" of the coastal mountains in Oregon I learned how to handle longer barreled rifles. Probably humping an M60 in Viet Nam along with 200 rounds of ammo gave a different perspective on a 9 - 10 pound rifle. But to each his own, I've used a lot of short, medium and longer barreled rifles in combat and peacetime hunting. I prefer the longer barrels is all. What others like is up to them but I do not like being on a firing line when they shoot such short barreled rifles anymore. All of my ARs have 20" barrels and I am comfortable with the 24" models. I've no use at all for the M4 or it's civilian counterpart as I believe the 5.56/.223 is marginal enough to 300 meters without giving up more by shortening the barrel. Time is crtical in multiple target CQB engagements and having to shoot an enemy 2 - 3 or more times gives another enemy time to shoot you. Being able to carry 3 times as much ammo does not make sense when you have to shoot an enemy 3 times instead of once either. I have used 5.56, .30 Carbine, 7.62x39, 7.62 NATO, 9mm and 45 ACP in combat. I prefer 7.62 NATO for that role. However, in civilian personal defense the the ranges are (or at least should be) quite close and most of the other cartridges are adequate with correct ammo and the application of correct marksmanship.

    Larry Gibson
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 07-02-2010 at 03:17 PM.

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    Here's some more information on AR15's to keep this on topic before it goes askew.

    I was talking to my friend Arne Brenan and asked him his opinion. He's one of the fellows most responsible for the development of the 6.5 Grendel and he's also an accomplished bench rest shooter. This is what he had to say:

    It all depends on how the barrel is designed and what receiver you mount it on.

    Billet receivers are more rigid than regular forged receivers and can handle more weight.


    It also depends on the cartridge and the caliber and what you are going to do with it.


    IMO, the best two barrel lengths in the AR are 18 and 22 inches.


    going from 18-22 is is worth maybe 75-100 fps
    going from 22 to 24 is worth maybe 30 fps
    going from 24 to 26 is worth maybe 20 fps
    going from 26 to 28 is worth maybe 10-15 fps


    The main purpose for a long barrel is to increase the sight radiius on match rifles.


    It is also important if you are trying to squeeze every fps you can out of a small cartridg

  9. #89
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    Mike in CO and Lloyd
    How about an 8 pound 30GOVT06 that gets fed with charger clips? My little 1903 21" and Model 54 both are under 8 lbs and reloads are quick. Of course both are equipped with Lyman 48 rear sights, no nancy boy bedwetter scopes on a real rifle.

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    Well this one thread that I started that really took off and I appreciate all of the info. I’m thinking that I may buy another upper in the future. I’ll probably buy another lower too plus extras. I’d like to put something together for long range. I guess what I’m saying is that I’ll build an AR later on. This one is for plinking and if TSHTF. I got to thinking, out of all of the revolvers, pistols and hunting rifles that I have, I don’t have nutin for group therapy.
    If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.
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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabbyM View Post
    https://www.dpmsinc.com/store/produc...d=821&cat=1704
    I've never seen a long AR that would shoot with a good bolt gun of the same weight. Seen a bunch of guys try to do it.
    ask me......
    is sub .5 in a 24 ar10 ok ?
    is sub 0.2 in a 24 ar10 ok
    is sub 0.2 in a 26 ar15 ok ??

    mike in co
    only accurate rifles are interesting

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank505 View Post
    Mike in CO and Lloyd
    How about an 8 pound 30GOVT06 that gets fed with charger clips? My little 1903 21" and Model 54 both are under 8 lbs and reloads are quick. Of course both are equipped with Lyman 48 rear sights, no nancy boy bedwetter scopes on a real rifle.
    no because it is not mag fed...simple lets not mix apples and oranges.....

    like i said show me you '06 in a 20 /25 rd mag fed config...
    Last edited by mike in co; 06-24-2010 at 07:45 PM.
    only accurate rifles are interesting

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    I've never seen a long AR that would shoot with a good bolt gun of the same weight. Seen a bunch of guys try to do it.
    It kind of depends on the comparison. If you are comparing AR's to bench rest, the Bench rest will be more accurate. Generally at the High power rifle matches, the AR's can hold there own with the bolt guns. The AR's do seem to have an advantage in the rapid fire stages due to not having to work the bolt and magazine reloads are easier than stripper clips.

    When I first started shooting highpower I was amazed at how accurate AR's were. In the hands of the better shooters I saw on several occasions 2 to 3 inch 10 shot rapid fire groups. In the sitting rapids (at 200 yards) the shooter would start from a standing position and when the targets went up he would have 60 seconds to assume the sitting position and fire 2 shots, change the magazine then fire 8 shots in 60 seconds. Of course the bolt guns are doing just as well, though there does not seem to be as many bolt guns.

    Off of a bench I have seen AR's shoot groups similar to Mike's examples.

  14. #94
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
    Gabby,

    Next time you have a stripped upper receiver measure the thickness of that thread extension. Just to give you an idea how soft that area is when one is torquing the barrel nut on and doesn't lube the face of the barrel flange that the nut bears against it creates friction which results in the barrel trying to turn. The indexing pin on the barrel extension purpose is not to prevent that, but to index the barrel...that is the gas port at dean 12 o'clock and the front sight. So what happens the index pin indents that fragile and thin threaded extension. The extension is soft and frail.

    You're welcome to your own opinions. I'm merely giving you the real facts so that you can decide upon them.

    You haven't worked with enough AR 15's if you haven't seen a barrel nut or barrel come loose.

    Let me ask you this. How many barrels have you seen that unscrewed from the barrel extension by someone removing the flash hider improperly?
    That would be pretty hard since the barrel does not screw into the receiver. I'm sure if Buba held or clamped the receiver instead of placing the barrel in a barrel vise then wrenched the flash hider he would trash the receiver. But how do you unscrew a barrel that is not screwed in? I'm not understanding why abuse is in any way connected to a design weakness. Same with no grease on the barrel nut.
    Take a pipe wrench to a Mauser and see how long it stays serviceable.

    I and everyone else has seen all sorts of issues from over torqued barres in bolt guns and revolvers. It's like a plague. There is no hope for anyone who would fail to use grease on a barrel nut more than after the first time. Blame the barrel or the nut but we all know who is to blame regardless of where fingers are pointing. Personally when I am torquing a nut and the first hole aligns for the gas tube anywhere close to the torque value I stop there and call it good. First one I did I saw where the tighten it up boys would go for the next hole thus exceeding torque value. In there mind tighter is always better and they can destroy hundreds of dollars worth of machine tooling every shift for twenty years and never change there ways. ( Yes the machine tooling destruction is a personal pet peeve of mine which is vaguely connected to this thread. )

    I did buy the heaviest receiver offered for my heavy barrel build. So I'm not of a mind that there is no flex involved. But the receiver barrel extension as far as I know has little stress under recoil which is where any big flexing occurs. If we had reports of bolt lugs wearing off linear or breaking due to suspected flex I'd be interested. Or any accuracy issues. Most of all I've never in my life heard of a barrel coming loose due to the extension stretching to allow a nut to loosen. It may have happened but I've never heard of such a thing and heavy barrel AR's shoot one hole 100 yard groups .

    Am not at all impressed by other people destroying receivers. Any more than all the stuff people tear up when working on cars under a shade tree. Or on the production clock at a dealership. Plus having machined quite a bit of 7075 I can say it's probably way tougher than you may think. Not trying to be argumentative.

    Have been hearing all about how Mickey Mouse guns don't work since the sixties and have never bought into it and have never had one fall apart in my hands and I've been shooting them for forty years. I may have had a jam but not sure. Do remember adjusting by bending the feed lips on aluminum mags so the bullets would set correctly but can't recall if I incurred a jam due to that or fixed it first. Since I bought my SP-1 for $69.95 at K-Mart I've been enduring scorn for shooting a mouse gun. I've become somewhat defensive over the years and I'm sure that shows in my post.

    When AR's got popular I bough a VW diesel car so I could once again have people tell me I owned the wrong machine and I'd be sorry. I just missed the scorn.

    BTW StarMetal: Do you know the hull of an Arleigh Burke Class Destroyer will bounce a 5" shell off. And it's only 3/4" thick in places. 3/4” of that alloy has the strength of 12” of the steel on a WWII battle ship hull. USS Cole was just hit with a very large load of HE. But since it broke was it a design flaw?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GabbyM View Post
    That would be pretty hard since the barrel does not screw into the receiver. I'm sure if Buba held or clamped the receiver instead of placing the barrel in a barrel vise then wrenched the flash hider he would trash the receiver. But how do you unscrew a barrel that is not screwed in? I'm not understanding why abuse is in any way connected to a design weakness. Same with no grease on the barrel nut.
    Take a pipe wrench to a Mauser and see how long it stays serviceable.

    I and everyone else has seen all sorts of issues from over torqued barres in bolt guns and revolvers. It's like a plague. There is no hope for anyone who would fail to use grease on a barrel nut more than after the first time. Blame the barrel or the nut but we all know who is to blame regardless of where fingers are pointing. Personally when I am torquing a nut and the first hole aligns for the gas tube anywhere close to the torque value I stop there and call it good. First one I did I saw where the tighten it up boys would go for the next hole thus exceeding torque value. In there mind tighter is always better and they can destroy hundreds of dollars worth of machine tooling every shift for twenty years and never change there ways. ( Yes the machine tooling destruction is a personal pet peeve of mine which is vaguely connected to this thread. )

    I did buy the heaviest receiver offered for my heavy barrel build. So I'm not of a mind that there is no flex involved. But the receiver barrel extension as far as I know has little stress under recoil which is where any big flexing occurs. If we had reports of bolt lugs wearing off linear or breaking due to suspected flex I'd be interested. Or any accuracy issues. Most of all I've never in my life heard of a barrel coming loose due to the extension stretching to allow a nut to loosen. It may have happened but I've never heard of such a thing and heavy barrel AR's shoot one hole 100 yard groups .

    Am not at all impressed by other people destroying receivers. Any more than all the stuff people tear up when working on cars under a shade tree. Or on the production clock at a dealership. Plus having machined quite a bit of 7075 I can say it's probably way tougher than you may think. Not trying to be argumentative.

    Have been hearing all about how Mickey Mouse guns don't work since the sixties and have never bought into it and have never had one fall apart in my hands and I've been shooting them for forty years. I may have had a jam but not sure. Do remember adjusting by bending the feed lips on aluminum mags so the bullets would set correctly but can't recall if I incurred a jam due to that or fixed it first. Since I bought my SP-1 for $69.95 at K-Mart I've been enduring scorn for shooting a mouse gun. I've become somewhat defensive over the years and I'm sure that shows in my post.

    When AR's got popular I bough a VW diesel car so I could once again have people tell me I owned the wrong machine and I'd be sorry. I just missed the scorn.

    BTW StarMetal: Do you know the hull of an Arleigh Burke Class Destroyer will bounce a 5" shell off. And it's only 3/4" thick in places. 3/4” of that alloy has the strength of 12” of the steel on a WWII battle ship hull. USS Cole was just hit with a very large load of HE. But since it broke was it a design flaw?
    Gabby,

    Here's what happened. First let me say that the barrel extension is held fast to the receiver by both the index pin and by the friction of the barrel nut against the barrel extension flange. So by just holding the rifle a few people have removed, or tried should I say, the flash hider with a a Cresent wrench and turned the barrel lose from the barrel extension. Yes, they should have used a barrel clamp in removal of the flash hider. The question that arose upon that happening is how the heck could I have unscrewed the barrel with a 6-7-8 inch Cresent wrench when the barrel is supposedly torqued over 100 pounds?

    BTW....the hulls you spoke on those Destroyers aren't make out of the aluminum the AR receivers are. Was that your point that the hull being relatively thin were strong beyond imaginations just like the thread extension portion of the upper receiver?

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by c3d4b2 View Post
    It kind of depends on the comparison. If you are comparing AR's to bench rest, the Bench rest will be more accurate. Generally at the High power rifle matches, the AR's can hold there own with the bolt guns. The AR's do seem to have an advantage in the rapid fire stages due to not having to work the bolt and magazine reloads are easier than stripper clips.

    When I first started shooting highpower I was amazed at how accurate AR's were. In the hands of the better shooters I saw on several occasions 2 to 3 inch 10 shot rapid fire groups. In the sitting rapids (at 200 yards) the shooter would start from a standing position and when the targets went up he would have 60 seconds to assume the sitting position and fire 2 shots, change the magazine then fire 8 shots in 60 seconds. Of course the bolt guns are doing just as well, though there does not seem to be as many bolt guns.

    Off of a bench I have seen AR's shoot groups similar to Mike's examples.
    It's the velocity hence maximum range that I've not seen an AR make. See post #? by StarMetal with it's velocity chart. Looks correct to me. However with a non gas vented bolt gun in 26” barrel I've no trouble sending a 53gr bullet at over 3,400 fps. I've shot next to two different long barrel AR's prairie dog shooting. Even after swapping ammo the bolt gun had between fifty to one hundred yards range on the AR. Swapped shooters too. None of my bolt gun loads exceeded published data.

    White Oaks sells 26” AR barrels with a gas port moved 2” forward but they do not advertise an increase in velocity. Port pressure with slow powder is supposed to be the reason for moving the port forward.

    Arching heavy for caliber bullets at long range works better on paper than on an unknown range moving critter. 8” twist bolt guns with 69 grain bullets do not make hits on dogs at long range over a 50 grain Blitz-King from a 12” twist barrel. It's not even a contest. All those 600 yard scores you see AR match rifles turning in with 77 or 80 grain bullets don't mean much out in the field. For one thing they take to long to get there and the critter moves out of the way of your bullet. Note you do not see a big move by small varmint shooters into heavy for caliber bullets. Sierra 65 grain Game King is one heck of a yote killer though. Which is what my 20” AR is set up to shoot along with it's sister 69 grain MK.

    I have three 22 rifles. A 5.56mm AR a 223 AR and a 223 Bolt gun. All are set up for completely different task and the ammo for them is not interchangeable to the point where most of it will not even chamber in another rifle. Bolt gun for instance gets neck sized cases that will not chamber in either AR. I do get to use the same high price match grade dies and all that prep equipment but the ammo must be labeled as to what rifle it shoots in. If I shoot cases sized to fit the 223 rifles in the old 5.56mm rifle groups open way up. You can have a 1 and a Ό inch rifle or a 2 1/2” shotgun. I've never checked to see what rounds interchange since it's a moot issue. That's what ammo cans with stickers are for.

    I did purchase a 1,000 piece box of Hornady once fired cases for $50 dollars off reloadersauction dot com this winter. That right there is a reason to shoot 223 rilfes.
    22 bullets are cheap and cast boollets can be made in a years suply from one pot of lead.

    Never have set up on the 500 yard line at Effingham , Illinois with my 20" barrel AR with 69gr MK's against my Rem 700 26" with 50 grain blitz-Kings. Only run irons or a 1x X 3x Weaver on the AR while I have a 6 x 24X on my bolt gun. But the trigger pull alone would be a game breaker.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarMetal View Post
    Gabby,

    Here's what happened. First let me say that the barrel extension is held fast to the receiver by both the index pin and by the friction of the barrel nut against the barrel extension flange. So by just holding the rifle a few people have removed, or tried should I say, the flash hider with a a Cresent wrench and turned the barrel lose from the barrel extension. Yes, they should have used a barrel clamp in removal of the flash hider. The question that arose upon that happening is how the heck could I have unscrewed the barrel with a 6-7-8 inch Cresent wrench when the barrel is supposedly torqued over 100 pounds?

    BTW....the hulls you spoke on those Destroyers aren't make out of the aluminum the AR receivers are. Was that your point that the hull being relatively thin were strong beyond imaginations just like the thread extension portion of the upper receiver?
    What I was getting at with the ships hulls is advancement in metallurgy. It's been leaps and bounds every ten years. We have aluminum you can whittle with a pocket knife then 7075 will make a 20 horse power mill shake like a 25 cent coin operated Motel 6 bed with a .060” deep pass.

    I do realize an AR is not to hard to break. Am sure there are many ways to break one that I've never considered. A wrench is a powerful tool. They can move about anything and if they can't you just need a longer one.

    My argument is a properly assembled then in good working order AR running without failure to a long life. After the wrenches and hammers come out all bets are off.

  18. #98
    Boolit Master
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    Dangit, you guys about talked me out of buying an AR. Allow me to ramble:

    Had considered a 458 Socom AR but 450 Bush is straight-walled and should be easier to reload,
    also takes pistol boolits. At least these are not 22 caliber and would HAVE some terminal ballistic effect.
    A freind was in Iraq and almost got shot by a BG that he had put two 22 holes in already.

    "Civilian personal defense range" might be changing in light of the recent invasion of Arizona,
    still I wonder if SHTF situation in my mostly urban environment would ever require more than 50 yards of trajectory.

    If it ain't short enough I probably wouldn't drag it around with me, thinking vehicle storage, concealment, etc.
    Carrying a rifle case to the car could be like a "kick me" sign on the back.
    Maybe it's the 007 factor, the Kel-Tec folder in 40s&w is looking good, and cheaper than an AR. But does it even qualify as a rifle?

    Can't afford too many items, somebody talk me into something...

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabbyM View Post
    It's the velocity hence maximum range that I've not seen an AR make. See post #? by StarMetal with it's velocity chart. Looks correct to me. However with a non gas vented bolt gun in 26” barrel I've no trouble sending a 53gr bullet at over 3,400 fps. I've shot next to two different long barrel AR's prairie dog shooting. Even after swapping ammo the bolt gun had between fifty to one hundred yards range on the AR. Swapped shooters too. None of my bolt gun loads exceeded published data.

    White Oaks sells 26” AR barrels with a gas port moved 2” forward but they do not advertise an increase in velocity. Port pressure with slow powder is supposed to be the reason for moving the port forward.

    Arching heavy for caliber bullets at long range works better on paper than on an unknown range moving critter. 8” twist bolt guns with 69 grain bullets do not make hits on dogs at long range over a 50 grain Blitz-King from a 12” twist barrel. It's not even a contest. All those 600 yard scores you see AR match rifles turning in with 77 or 80 grain bullets don't mean much out in the field. For one thing they take to long to get there and the critter moves out of the way of your bullet. Note you do not see a big move by small varmint shooters into heavy for caliber bullets. Sierra 65 grain Game King is one heck of a yote killer though. Which is what my 20” AR is set up to shoot along with it's sister 69 grain MK.

    I have three 22 rifles. A 5.56mm AR a 223 AR and a 223 Bolt gun. All are set up for completely different task and the ammo for them is not interchangeable to the point where most of it will not even chamber in another rifle. Bolt gun for instance gets neck sized cases that will not chamber in either AR. I do get to use the same high price match grade dies and all that prep equipment but the ammo must be labeled as to what rifle it shoots in. If I shoot cases sized to fit the 223 rifles in the old 5.56mm rifle groups open way up. You can have a 1 and a Ό inch rifle or a 2 1/2” shotgun. I've never checked to see what rounds interchange since it's a moot issue. That's what ammo cans with stickers are for.

    I did purchase a 1,000 piece box of Hornady once fired cases for $50 dollars off reloadersauction dot com this winter. That right there is a reason to shoot 223 rilfes.
    22 bullets are cheap and cast boollets can be made in a years suply from one pot of lead.

    Never have set up on the 500 yard line at Effingham , Illinois with my 20" barrel AR with 69gr MK's against my Rem 700 26" with 50 grain blitz-Kings. Only run irons or a 1x X 3x Weaver on the AR while I have a 6 x 24X on my bolt gun. But the trigger pull alone would be a game breaker.

    My load for my 26 inch barreled Model 70 Win Varminter is the 53 grain Hornady with 4895 to a measured velocity of 3300 fps. So I agree with you there. Now I have a bone stock pre ban Colt HBAR with the 7 twist. All I mainly done was shot prairie dogs out west and groundhogs back east with it. Now I hunted with friends and those friends exclusively always had 22-250's. I was not at much a handicap with my two 223's. Now I can tell you that the 69 grain Sierra shoots much better then you depicted. I was also one of the first to report back to Sierra on that bullet. I couldn't believe how flat that bullet shot in my Colt. There is a fellow over on Accurate forums that also has a Colt HBAR and man oh days you shoot see his long range groups! Only thing he done thought was put a free float forearm on his....and a scope of course. Another thing I am trying to convey is that my HBAR and the other fellow's both have the 5.56 chamber. You had better believe the 5.56 chamber can be made to shoot. Not as good as the match chambers, but still very well. My one 22-250 friend had lots to say when he saw my HBAR perform one day. He was at the time against "assault rifles". I changed his mind there. Anyways after some very long range groundhog kills here is what he had to say. He said he was impressed how flat it shot. Was impressed how much damage it done at distance. Impressed at "how fast" it got to the target. He complained about the muzzle blast (they have a flash hider on them and it increases the noise).

    All I can say is if anyone was persuaded by some past posts not to buy an AR 15 in 223 or with a NATO chamber....don't be. They shoot much better then said.

    Gabby I'm not saying AR's aren't durable and long lasting. I'm just sayin that the longer barrels are a strain on the upper receiver thread extension and barrel nut system that most don't realize. I'm also not saying that using such long barrel that you are going to break that threaded portion in a few shots. In fact I don't think that you will break it.

  20. #100
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by GabbyM View Post
    It's the velocity hence maximum range that I've not seen an AR make. See post #? by StarMetal with it's velocity chart. Looks correct to me. However with a non gas vented bolt gun in 26” barrel I've no trouble sending a 53gr bullet at over 3,400 fps. I've shot next to two different long barrel AR's prairie dog shooting. Even after swapping ammo the bolt gun had between fifty to one hundred yards range on the AR. Swapped shooters too. None of my bolt gun loads exceeded published data.

    White Oaks sells 26” AR barrels with a gas port moved 2” forward but they do not advertise an increase in velocity. Port pressure with slow powder is supposed to be the reason for moving the port forward.

    Arching heavy for caliber bullets at long range works better on paper than on an unknown range moving critter. 8” twist bolt guns with 69 grain bullets do not make hits on dogs at long range over a 50 grain Blitz-King from a 12” twist barrel. It's not even a contest. All those 600 yard scores you see AR match rifles turning in with 77 or 80 grain bullets don't mean much out in the field. For one thing they take to long to get there and the critter moves out of the way of your bullet. Note you do not see a big move by small varmint shooters into heavy for caliber bullets. Sierra 65 grain Game King is one heck of a yote killer though. Which is what my 20” AR is set up to shoot along with it's sister 69 grain MK.

    I have three 22 rifles. A 5.56mm AR a 223 AR and a 223 Bolt gun. All are set up for completely different task and the ammo for them is not interchangeable to the point where most of it will not even chamber in another rifle. Bolt gun for instance gets neck sized cases that will not chamber in either AR. I do get to use the same high price match grade dies and all that prep equipment but the ammo must be labeled as to what rifle it shoots in. If I shoot cases sized to fit the 223 rifles in the old 5.56mm rifle groups open way up. You can have a 1 and a Ό inch rifle or a 2 1/2” shotgun. I've never checked to see what rounds interchange since it's a moot issue. That's what ammo cans with stickers are for.

    I did purchase a 1,000 piece box of Hornady once fired cases for $50 dollars off reloadersauction dot com this winter. That right there is a reason to shoot 223 rilfes.
    22 bullets are cheap and cast boollets can be made in a years suply from one pot of lead.

    Never have set up on the 500 yard line at Effingham , Illinois with my 20" barrel AR with 69gr MK's against my Rem 700 26" with 50 grain blitz-Kings. Only run irons or a 1x X 3x Weaver on the AR while I have a 6 x 24X on my bolt gun. But the trigger pull alone would be a game breaker.
    i shoot 52/53 match at 3500/3600 fps easy from a 26" bbl...with accuracy in an ar15.

    if you want long range accuracy why compare to a 22 cal ar, why not a 30 cal ar..the ar10 and the sr25.
    i have shot my ar10t at 600 with the ability to hit 2moa( lack of wind skills by me). 175 bergers similar load as the current 118 lr load.
    lol get a jewell trigger.....just cause yuo and you guns get out shot by your ar's does not mean all ars are out shot by bolt guns.....

    in 1996, john feamster( a member here) shot a 0.231.....at 200 YARDS in a br match with an ar.

    when you do that with your bolt gun( in a br match) let us know.

    mike in co
    only accurate rifles are interesting

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check