AR15s......... Pros and Cons

[akajun]

Down South, Ill be in Jonesville on Friday at El Nopal for a meeting. I can show you one of my built AR's. I have over 15 in different variations. They are all quality.

BTW I shoot Highpower, right now with a "built gun". Its a White Oak Armament upper with a Krieger barrell on a Essential Arms Lower with a RRA 2stage trigger. This gun has a Wylde chamber for accuracy reasons with 80gr bullets. I would not use a wylde chamber for any general purpose gun, they are tight. Nato chambers for my general purpose guns.

Not knocking colt, but they are overpriced for what they are. You can get the same gun in RRA, Bushmaster, Even DPMS and Olympic for much less without sacrificing quality. DOnt let the colt snobs fool you. If fact when it comes to service after the sale, I have found colt lacking. BTW my first highpower gun was a Colt Hbar which I made Expert with and even managed to squeek out a few master scores.

If you start building with parts kits, Del Ton and Model 1 are who I have used. I have not had one problem out of them. Also dont overlook the colt kits from Century arms and other importers that you can Build on a kit.

[StarMetal]

Down South, Ill be in Jonesville on Friday at El Nopal for a meeting. I can show you one of my built AR's. I have over 15 in different variations. They are all quality.

BTW I shoot Highpower, right now with a "built gun". Its a White Oak Armament upper with a Krieger barrell on a Essential Arms Lower with a RRA 2stage trigger. This gun has a Wylde chamber for accuracy reasons with 80gr bullets. I would not use a wylde chamber for any general purpose gun, they are tight. Nato chambers for my general purpose guns.

Not knocking colt, but they are overpriced for what they are. You can get the same gun in RRA, Bushmaster, Even DPMS and Olympic for much less without sacrificing quality. DOnt let the colt snobs fool you. If fact when it comes to service after the sale, I have found colt lacking. BTW my first highpower gun was a Colt Hbar which I made Expert with and even managed to squeek out a few master scores.

If you start building with parts kits, Del Ton and Model 1 are who I have used. I have not had one problem out of them. Also dont overlook the colt kits from Century arms and other importers that you can Build on a kit.

You have one fine match AR and a great barrel, and Colts are high priced. That's where I stop agreeing with you. First off Olympia Arms is one of the worse on the bottom of the totem pole AR builders. Model 1 sales is another low quality AR. You should hear what the industry says about them and JT. DPMS is only an assembler, they make nothing in house. RRA is one of the new boys on the block that has a good advertising group, not that it's a bad rifle, which it's not. The longest standing manufacturers are CMT (STAG), Colt, Arma-Lite, and Bushmaster. I'm not talking about the custom builders out there like LW, Les Baer, and some others.

Our own Bullshop not long ago acquires an Olympia Arms AR 15 and the bolt was installed 180 degrees out because the bolt cam pin could be installed in the bolt from either end of the hole due to their wonderful terrible manufacturing processes.

[mike in co]

.223 is my choice if that is what you mean? Ammo is easier to get.

I've found a buddy of mine that builds AR's. He is recommending Colt and a couple other high end brands. He says he will build one for me if I want him to.

ok lets get this part started correctly.

generally 5.56 is found in mil style ar's

generally 223 is found in target/varmit style

the 5.56 chamber is more "forgiving " of the two.
(minor potential pressure issue with 556 in a 223 chamber.....does anyone have proof of a failure ?)

better mil rifles have chromed lined bores...ease of maintainence.

cheap mil is not chrome lined

as was pointed out, chrome linning does not lend it self to target accuracy.

bulk or mil surplus style ammo is not target ammo.

stick with armalite, rockriver, stag, bushmaster....not colt.

there is no such thing as "mil match" in the ar family...yes in 03, m14, garand....no such spec for the m16/ar15.....all hype.


there are dcm/cmp legal built match rifles.

mike in co

[mike in co]

buy a stag/rockriver/bushmaster/armalite over the colt and spend what you save on some ammo.
armalite's new ad for thier free float quad upper chrome lined says 2-3inches at 100 yds.

so you guys tell me more about your 1/4moa battle rifles......was that one or 2 shots ??

anything near 1 moa is fine in an ar15 with a 556 chamber and chrome lined bore.

its a battle rifle not a target rifle.

mike in co

[NickSS]

AS I said in my last post I have an Olympic carbine and it shoots extremely well. I have shot FMJ reloads into one inch 10 shot groups with a 16 inch carbine with iron sights. The only special thing I did was weigh all the bullets and used the ones in the middle of the batch that weighed within .1 gr of each other. This cut almost one inch out of the groups fired with bulk un-weighed bullets. As for quality I have owned five or six colt ARs of different models, several Bushmasters. a couple of DPMS and two Olympic arms rifles. My first Olympic arms rifle was poor to say the least but in recent years they have gotten their act together and make as good a rifle now as any other I have seen. As far as I can tell as long as the rifle is built to mil specs they all are about the same. Like in any other rifle there are minor differences and if you get into competion with it you want the best barrel and trigger money can buy. As to the rest of it one is good as another for most applications. Truthfully I have not had a malfunction with any AR in so long that I forget when I ever had one. If kept clean and maintained they will shoot all day every day until warn out. I get a real kick out of M1 Garand collectors who pay really big bucks for a winchester M1. I have owned a couple dozen M1s in my life and the Winchester ones were always the worst finished and fitting of them all. That is just like a Colt AR. They are no better fit or finished than most of the rest of them on the block but they Charge more money because it's a "Colt". Big deal I would rather save money on the rifle and buy more ammo with it. I put my DPMS light weight carbine together from parts and it cost me ready to shoot $655.00. Think of all the ammo I can buy for $400 or $500 I did not spend on the rifle. And the rifle shoots right at 3/4 inch for 10 shots off a bench rest when firing Sierra 69 gr matchkings pushed by 24 gr of H335 in Lake City GI brass using a 6X scope for a sight.

[nicholst55]

Here's some info on the differences between the various .223 and 5.56mm chambers that are available:

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

http://www.zediker.com/articles/AR_chambers.pdf

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223vs556.pdf

[Down South]

Down South, Ill be in Jonesville on Friday at El Nopal for a meeting. I can show you one of my built AR's. I have over 15 in different variations. They are all quality.

BTW I shoot Highpower, right now with a "built gun". Its a White Oak Armament upper with a Krieger barrell on a Essential Arms Lower with a RRA 2stage trigger. This gun has a Wylde chamber for accuracy reasons with 80gr bullets. I would not use a wylde chamber for any general purpose gun, they are tight. Nato chambers for my general purpose guns.

Not knocking colt, but they are overpriced for what they are. You can get the same gun in RRA, Bushmaster, Even DPMS and Olympic for much less without sacrificing quality. DOnt let the colt snobs fool you. If fact when it comes to service after the sale, I have found colt lacking. BTW my first highpower gun was a Colt Hbar which I made Expert with and even managed to squeek out a few master scores.

If you start building with parts kits, Del Ton and Model 1 are who I have used. I have not had one problem out of them. Also dont overlook the colt kits from Century arms and other importers that you can Build on a kit.

I appreciate the offer and would gladly take you up on it but I will be out of town Friday. I will be Leaving for Houston tomorrow and will be gone through the weekend.

[Down South]

Here's some info on the differences between the various .223 and 5.56mm chambers that are available:

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

http://www.zediker.com/articles/AR_chambers.pdf

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223vs556.pdf

Thanks for the info. It gives a good reference to the different chamber dimensions.

[akajun]

You have one fine match AR and a great barrel, and Colts are high priced. That's where I stop agreeing with you. First off Olympia Arms is one of the worse on the bottom of the totem pole AR builders. Model 1 sales is another low quality AR. You should hear what the industry says about them and JT. DPMS is only an assembler, they make nothing in house. RRA is one of the new boys on the block that has a good advertising group, not that it's a bad rifle, which it's not. The longest standing manufacturers are CMT (STAG), Colt, Arma-Lite, and Bushmaster. I'm not talking about the custom builders out there like LW, Les Baer, and some others.

Our own Bullshop not long ago acquires an Olympia Arms AR 15 and the bolt was installed 180 degrees out because the bolt cam pin could be installed in the bolt from either end of the hole due to their wonderful terrible manufacturing processes.

Well I personally own 3 model1 sales rifle and have had zero problems, even one in the problematic 7.62x39 that runs 100%. The only Olympic I have ever handled that did not run right was one that the gas key was not staked on properly and the screw backed out. A call to Olympic and they sent the owner a new carrier and did not ask for the old one which we were able to fix ourselves. My DPMS guns, especially my 308's are some of the most accurate and reliable guns I own for stock production guns. My 308's will outshoot my Fulton Armory match M1a.

As far as Stag, I personally know of one guy who has sent his Stag upper back twice for the same problem, not enough gas to cycle the action. It was a complete gun but they only wanted the upper back. They made it right eventually, the gas hole was either out of line or too small, and they gave him some accessories to make up for it, but he was without rifle for 4 weeks.

All manufacturers will have problems, Its how they deal with the problems that makes the difference.
BTW DPMS is not an assembler, they manufacture their own stuff. Thats why Remington bought them and thats who makes Remington's line of Ar's and 308 ar's.

[Lloyd Smale]

I hear the oly and dpms bashing all the time. I did own two differnt oly back years ago and they were basicaly junk. Ive also shot some of there newer guns and they were much better guns. I own two dpms guns both sportitcals (there cheapest guns) ones an ar15 and ones an ar10. both are great guns. both shoot moa or less with loads they like and both have been extreamly reliable. Im not one that considers going out with a 100 rounds a day of shooting either. Both of these guns have many thousand rounds throught them. The little 223 has more rounds through it then probably all my other ars combined. I bought it because it was cheap and i figured id use it for a blaster. Well i kind of fell in love with it. It is at least a lb lighter then any of my other ars and just doesnt miss a beat and will shoot right along side my colt bushmaster and stag guns. I also dont see the big deal about them not manufacturing there own guns. Colt doesnt either and there consider one of the best. For the most part ar parts are ar parts and the only real thing that seperates one from another is the quality of the bolt group and maybe the quality of the barrel. A lower is a lower and so is a lower parts kit. Sure a rock river usually comes with a better trigger but a few swipes with a file can make any of they just as good.
I like my colt. It no doubt has a better bolt group then my dpms but for 700 bucks compared to 1200 bucks for the colt I could buy a couple good bolt groups. I get a charge out of guys that think because there gun says stag or bushmaster that its a cadilac when if fact its just a ford.

You have one fine match AR and a great barrel, and Colts are high priced. That's where I stop agreeing with you. First off Olympia Arms is one of the worse on the bottom of the totem pole AR builders. Model 1 sales is another low quality AR. You should hear what the industry says about them and JT. DPMS is only an assembler, they make nothing in house. RRA is one of the new boys on the block that has a good advertising group, not that it's a bad rifle, which it's not. The longest standing manufacturers are CMT (STAG), Colt, Arma-Lite, and Bushmaster. I'm not talking about the custom builders out there like LW, Les Baer, and some others.

Our own Bullshop not long ago acquires an Olympia Arms AR 15 and the bolt was installed 180 degrees out because the bolt cam pin could be installed in the bolt from either end of the hole due to their wonderful terrible manufacturing processes.

[StarMetal]

I hear the oly and dpms bashing all the time. I did own two differnt oly back years ago and they were basicaly junk. Ive also shot some of there newer guns and they were much better guns. I own two dpms guns both sportitcals (there cheapest guns) ones an ar15 and ones an ar10. both are great guns. both shoot moa or less with loads they like and both have been extreamly reliable. Im not one that considers going out with a 100 rounds a day of shooting either. Both of these guns have many thousand rounds throught them. The little 223 has more rounds through it then probably all my other ars combined. I bought it because it was cheap and i figured id use it for a blaster. Well i kind of fell in love with it. It is at least a lb lighter then any of my other ars and just doesnt miss a beat and will shoot right along side my colt bushmaster and stag guns. I also dont see the big deal about them not manufacturing there own guns. Colt doesnt either and there consider one of the best. For the most part ar parts are ar parts and the only real thing that seperates one from another is the quality of the bolt group and maybe the quality of the barrel. A lower is a lower and so is a lower parts kit. Sure a rock river usually comes with a better trigger but a few swipes with a file can make any of they just as good.
I like my colt. It no doubt has a better bolt group then my dpms but for 700 bucks compared to 1200 bucks for the colt I could buy a couple good bolt groups. I get a charge out of guys that think because there gun says stag or bushmaster that its a cadilac when if fact its just a ford.

I'm talking about manufacturers a number of parts for their rifles. Today very few companies make every single part for their rifles. An example are screws. Most the time those are farmed out parts. In respect with that Colt did make a lot of parts for their rifles. A high percentage of AR15 companies farm out every single part. DPMS is one. Now I won't bash DPMS because I feel they have set a standard for parts that they will accept and for those they will reject. DPMS isn't too bad of a rifle. Recently one of the top brands had a barrel problem. I won't mention who. They went to Lothar Walther to find out what that problems was and it was resolved. When I was told it was pretty pathetic this major company messed up so bad.

I hear some say well I had trouble with a Stag. Let me ask you this. Name one product in the world someone hasn't had a problem with. Look at the car manufacturers....have they made everyone of their cars perfect? No.

I'm just saying which companies put a little bit more effort in their product.

One can buy the surplus junk parts for an AR that one of the large parts vendors sales (not Numrich) like Sarco. Some of the parts are really government surplus junk. Yet a working rifle can be assembled from them.

Look at Remington and S&W. They don't make their AR15's. Stag makes S&W's and DPMS and Bushmaster put them together for Remington. Do notice that S&W, who like to feel they make a premier product, did got to Stag ( which CMT is one of the oldest manufacturers of AR parts) for their rifle. The two new 22 rim fire dedicated AR15's being sold by S&W and Colt aren't even made by either.

The lower line manufacturers have a higher ratio of bad guns, not saying everyone of them are junk.

[Moonie]

My 19 year old son and I recently put together an AR, DPMS lower with an upper kit from www.m-aparts.com, total cost was about $640. Haven't shot it much but it fits the bill for what we wanted, just a plinker. I am working on building a 6.8 SPC upper with top shelf parts however. Do be careful the AR platform can be addicting.

[StarMetal]

My 19 year old son and I recently put together an AR, DPMS lower with an upper kit from www.m-aparts.com, total cost was about $640. Haven't shot it much but it fits the bill for what we wanted, just a plinker. I am working on building a 6.8 SPC upper with top shelf parts however. Do be careful the AR platform can be addicting.

You're right on all accounts especially them becoming addicting.

[timbuck]

I've been watching this thread also thinking of an AR type. Nobody has mentioned the one I am looking at, Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf. Anybody have anything good or bad to say about them?

[StarMetal]

I've been watching this thread also thinking of an AR type. Nobody has mentioned the one I am looking at, Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf. Anybody have anything good or bad to say about them?

It's a pretty good round. The parts that AA uses are pretty decent too. It's a real thumper of a cartridge too. Little hard to get components for, but I think you'll really like it.

[Lloyd Smale]

just got back in the door from shooting my beo again. Mostly just trying to weed out which of my magazines work and which dont. ended up putting about a 150 rounds through it in a t shirt and have a little bit of red on my shoulder It sure is fun though. It smacks rocks like the hammer of thor! Shot a couple 100 yard groups with the 335 reineer hps. They consistantly go 2 inch at a 100 which aint bad for me using an aimpoint. Couple buddys stopped by and really got a charge out of me dumping a couple clips into a big rock as fast as i could. Had my ar10 along too and it was like shooting a pop gun after the beo. I dont know how many rounds are through my beo but its a bunch and i cant remember it ever missing a beat other then a couple of my mags dont like feeding the last round.

[mac1911]

I posted this on the fly and needed to clear it up a bit .For decent range plinking,I Went with a model 2 from STAG...hands down the best customer support BEFORE I even owned one. Answred all my phone calls and emails even called mr back to discuss the difference between .223 rem chamber and 5.56....I have since built a few uppers and lowers. Useing S&W RRA STAG in many configurations. My STAG factory gun has shot 4k rounds of wolf milclasic with out a hitch. I am no match shooter but hit about 3" groups or so @ 100yards.

Peter from AR15sales.com is the best for STAG and RRA guns and parts most items ship for free and lower than SRP. I saved about 125.00 on a complete STAG upper (kit,LH safety and some extra parts) compared to others and stag(on my order)

[mike in co]

I saved about 125.00 on a complete STASG upper compared to others and stag.

ok what upper did you get that you saved 125 off stag msrp ???

cause i'm gonna start carrying those....none of the ones i carry have a $100 markup


and yes i am a stag dealer....

( having said that if you are buying from a distributor /dealer...he may get there)

[Larry Gibson]

I've dealt with lots of ARs over the years since '65. I've owned numerous Colts over the years and never had a thing wrong with any of them. I've fixed a couple others with small parts breakage due to hard use and abuse but that is expected with any rifle, AR or other.

Currently my Colt Hbar Competition has not stuttered once and shoots sub moa all day long with the Redfield Palma sight on it of with a scope using quality ammo. Yes the Colts cost a little more but I've not had any problems with them. I also have a DPMS AR and a parts gun with an original M16 upper and milsurp 12" twist chrome lined bore. The DPMS is very accurate; It wears a Leupold 3x9 and shoots 1 1/2 - 2 moa with M855 and close to 1 moa with match loads. The parts AR with it's 12" twist chrome lined mil spec barrel using the EOTech on it will put 20 rounds of LC M193 into 3 1/2" at 200 yards any time I ask it to. With Speer 52 gr HPs over 26.5 H335 it shoot into right at MOA. Back when I could focus on an ARs front sight I've also shot that load in a lot of Colt ARs and others that would shoot 1 - 1 1/2 moa out to 300 yards (deadly on varmints, particularly coyotes).

I've also dealt with a myrid of other ARs. Being just a few miles north of Olympic Arms and close to Fort Lewis I have also a bit of experience with their ARs and will use them as an example here. Almost all of them that are factory built are good, accurate and serviceable rifles. The problems comes when you buy a used one someone (a lot of unit "armorers" get credit around here) built from a parts kits. The AR is relatively easy to put together but it must be done right. I've seen many parts kits with pretty poor parts, obviously rejects from a production line with many of the parts out of spec. I've rebuilt and corrected too many of these parts guns built on Olympic lowers that were assembled incorrectly or had bad parts to count. Olymic arms and DPMS get bashed a lot becuase the receiver has their name on it but who knows where the rest of the rifle came from or who put it together? Yet Olympic Arms and DPMS get the blame. If you buy a used one don't bash the manufacturer unless you know it is not a parts gun. Even then both companies are easy to deal with to get the problem fixed.

Just my observations on ARs. Others vary.

Larry Gibson

[c3d4b2]

If you are able, I would recommend you purchase a lower and assemble it, then purchase a White Oak Armament upper. If you do not feel confident in building the lower, I would buy the lower and upper separately. It saves you from paying the tax on a complete rifle.

Unless things have changed recently, I would stay away from the Colt lowers. I have heard that they are machined differently to prevent full auto conversions and the machining can cause problems with the higher end triggers (I have not verified the triggers will not work) . Higher end triggers are very nice and are recommended if you can swing it. I have stayed away from the Colts. They seem to work fine, but they are higher priced with no real benefit for the extra money.

Here is a link with instructions on building. (Lowers are easy to put together and do not require any high price tools)

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=226782

The White Oak Armament upper is not a top of the line setup, but it is very close (the main difference is the barrel). It has a barrel tube that gives you a free floating barrel and if you use a sling the sling tension will not shift your point of aim. White Oak is affiliated with John Holliger. John is one of the top competitive AR builders in the country and he has helped both me and my brother with (self induced) issues we were having.

If you are planning on a better trigger you can also buy a lower kit from White Oak that does not have a trigger and save a few dollars.

Here is a link

http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/

There are a few manufactures that actually build lowers. They build the lowers and mark them for the company they are building for. Here is a link with some info.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=318113

I would also recommend the Wylde chamber. They seem to do well with what ever you feed them.

I would also highly recommend checking out the following books.

The Competitive AR15: the ultimate technical guide http://www.zediker.com/books/ar2/ARII_main.html


Black Magic—The Ultra Accurate AR-15
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...265&t=11082005