AR15s......... Pros and Cons

[mike in co]

I think we are mixing apples and oranges here. What percentage of us are going to build a rifle for Camp Perry?

What percent is going to build a rifle for 3 gun?

What percent is going to buy (or build) the AR because it is a darn good weapon for plinking, maybe some varmits (ones that fly or have four legs), home defense- 2 legged varmits (adding or being able to add a flashlight or laser makes sense) and any insurgency that crops up here at home it is still going to do them justice. If they stick with the 5.56 (as long as the US forces still use it) they will be able to scrounge ammo to keep it running.

We, at least I won't, join any group against our gov, but I will defend my self and my family if someone or group attempt to do us harm.

The Average Joe isn't looking for a sniper type rifle to shoot 300 - 1000 yards. Most of us don't have an oppurtunity to shoot much past 300. How many of us have had the training to dope the wind and mirage over the field/pastures to make a hit?

I bought the 16in version because it is light, short, easy to swing, you can walk down a hallway (passageway to Marines and Sailors) and not poke evry little thing walking through your house or urban environment in the dark.

I know I can hit with it at 300 - 600, but that is not what I bought it for.

These are my reasons and justification to me why I bought it.

Mike in CO - you have different reasons and purpose for yours.

Just for the record - My last year to qualify with the M16 - I used the A2 model - sights were easier to adjust, but we were still told to use a loose sling (I always thought it was the receiver, not the barrel is why the loose sling) and my score was about the same as it had been with the A1 - mid range Expert.

I still think the M16 is an excellent battle rifle for the average Soldier, Sailor, Marine or Airman. They are easier to shoot accurately in the offhand or high kneeling, quick recovery for aimed 2nd or 3rd shoot if needed (keep shooting until the bad guy is on the ground - then shoot him again - even with the 7.62).

Getting long winded in my old age.

These are my thoughts from my experience - yours may be completly different.

you be talking to the wrong guy...
i own two ar10s...one a target and one a br rifle.
i own 9 ar15's....everything on your list and more. i have 2 dedicated br ar15's, a three gun, a long range( 26" bbl krieger , 1/7 twist)

and ohh you cannot buy an m14...but with the proper paper work i can buy a full auto ar15( i got no use for one)


free floated fore ends and heavy bbls are quite common. as are optics...why shoot iron sights when optics are much better( even the mil has figured that out)

why do you think we moved to the m16 ? lighter, cheaper, easier to shoot..better, more ammo per man.
an m14 shooter in nam carried 4 mags and one in the gun....total round count by the bean counters...100 in real life 95 or less. a nam era m16 came with 7 20 round mags...140 rounds, same story some carried less than the 140....133/126...but still significanly more rounds than an m14 shooter.
m14's are still used today, but more and more are being replaced with ar10's/sr25's...cause they work better longer and are cheaper to make and maintain.

you dont have to BUILD a rifle for camp perry.....you can shoot local cmp/dcm /nra matches...oh and buy the match ready rifle of the rack...at a discount for match shooters!


if your average guy does not get to shoot past 300 , as you say, then what do you need a 500 yd m14 for ??? see someone mixing apples and oranges ??

i never said an m14 was no good, what i did say was an ar10 is better....no sense comparing an ar15 to an m14..........thats apples and oranges again.
why does the mil shoot ar15/m16 at perry ??? cause they saw the light. they were getting thier colective butts beat by civilans shooting ar's over thier m14's.

next

mike in co

[missionary5155]

God morning
I wore a Pickle Suit from 71-74. I had my fill of that piece of plastic in Basic. I so badly wanted to shoot a M-14. BUT as I was an 11E Tank crewman and got to shoot real calibers at the ranges. But I sure did not want anything to do with that little black rifle. When I ETS´d I happilly continued shooting Caliber 30´s and larger. Except for one .243 Remingtom 788 I did not have any centerfire smaller than .30. Raised two sons and 1 daughter who never fired a .223 but happily fired the Caliber .30 semi-autos... so much for that "Recoil Baby Boo".
But one day about 1985 I walked into a police supply store I frequent when up north there. There in the resale rack was a Colt H-bar Match with Flash surpressure for $700. Looked 99%. Box, papers, all that stuff... Previous owner officer Never used it. So out of a wim I bought it.. still have it. Trigger was awful like all the Colts I remembered from basic... but worse as it was still near new. BUT I found out it was OK to shoot and far more acurate than I imagined. My wife liked it.. It did not rattle her to shoot it.
So now there are 3.. all set up for specific tasks. The Colt is stock.. there is one flat top with a 4-12 scope & 24 inch free floated barrel for coyotees and groundhogs when I an to lazy to go brush crawling. Another with a colapsoble stock and Halo sight.
Personally I would go with a AR-10 or one of the other companies that make a Caliber .30 AR type. They are more affordable. But the system works and a Caliber .30 will be far more versitle. Sadly the magazines are costly.. Back when I bought my first FN a mag was $5-7.. not no more. But you will never regret a caliber .30. Something gets hit with a .30 and it really gets the starch watered out fast at any range. The m4 may be a great tool for door to door... But I never had to clear a building... I had a 105mm with beehive or HP for that... But it looked to me my pump Mossy 12 guage was just as good.
So there are my ramblings.. The caliber.223 has a place.. But my caliber .30´s have a home.
Then one day then clouds were on the Horizon.

[mike in co]

ohh and as life would have it..i think the swedes got it right over 100 yrs ago.

look where we are going.....down below thirties, and up from twenties....lands you in 6.5 land.

it would still be an ar sized chassis, 6.5 in an 7.62x39 type case..........

not thirty round mags but not 20's either.....
maybe an 18 inch bbl...a bit heavier than todays ar mil bbls.

just stirring the pot.

mike in co

[StarMetal]

sorry...again comparing apples to oranges.

try a match ar15 for weight and say that again...they move the weight right up there.

I double that, apparently he has never handled a match AR15 or AR10 to compare weight. One of the main criticisms by my best friend is why should he carry a rifle that weighs as much as a M14 but only shoots the 5.56. He knows how heavy they are.

I want the match grade accuracy at distance because I shoot varmints at long distance. I also practice on long distance targets.

The boys over at the Grendel forum hardly ever shoot close distance. Almost all of them are long distance shooters and boy oh boy what that 6.5 Grendel can do.

[Storydude]

Sure you can buy a legal M1
http://www.autoweapons.com/photos10/feb/3114m14.html

22,500 dollars+stamp.

[82nd airborne]

a gent here has 3.... they are fun

[dualsport]

I'm going to do a 'trigger job' on an ar15, all generic mil-spec parts. I have the AGI how to video and a pretty good book. I've done more complicated work and pulled it off, so am confident I can follow instructions. I know a aftermarket trigger is the popular choice, but I want to learn how to just make the standard trigger better. I don't use an ar for varminting or hunting critters at all, maybe a local match for fun. Anybody doing their own ar trigger work? How'd it go? Anyone using the AGI gunsmithing videos? Mine looks pretty thourough and easy to follow. I want to keep the two stage, I like them, with a second stage maybe at 3 lbs.? Clean and smooth means more to me than just light. Who's already crossed this bridge?

[82nd airborne]

Its not too hard, i use a very fine hone. youll never get it light but you can get it pretty smooth. just keep testing it to make sure it is still functioning properly as you go, it does take some time.

[dualsport]

Thanks Aaron, and thankyou for your service and sacrifice too. I don't know how you guys do it, going down those same roads everyday, as ordered, knowing you're going to get ied'd. From all that I've heard it's like you're being used as bait. You have more cajones than I do, I couldn't do it. I never carried an M16 professionally, when I was in boot camp(Navy) we had 30-06 bolt actions, I kid you not. And very worn out 1911A1s, all just for "repelling invaders". I think we shot some .22 rimfires too. We also did a lot of marching. Anyway, my goal is to just tune up a mil spec 20" A2 type using cheap parts. I'm really cheap. Several of my fellow shooters are waiting for me to do my gun for a learning phase and then they want their triggers cleaned up. I do have some good stones to hone with and instructions. The AGI video goes beyond that, with some minor modifications to the fire control group, but no new parts. Another reason is I'm a closet survivalist (shh) and want to know my weapon inside out. The barrel coming off thing is a new one for me to worry about. Finally, one last question, ok two, when you were firing your weapon 'til the barrel got red did it continue to fire and do you think the military should go to piston systems? (That's one ?) When were you in Iraq? For what it's worth, I'm glad you lived, welcome home, a little late.

[82nd airborne]

Thankyou very much for the gratitude dual sport, thats what makes it easier! To answer your question on the red barrel, it was night time so it probably wasnt near as hot as a red barrel in the day, which i have heard of, but yes i did keep shooting for the rest of the 12 hrs. (google april, 10 2007 firefight iraq) its something like that that brings some stuff up. But anyways, im fine with the direct impengement system because as long as you take care of it, it takes care of you. the guys that activly engage in combat continuously, not just a non combat unit that gets ambushed or something, take the utmost care of their weapons and i saw only one jam during actual fighting. pretty rare if you take care of it. the piston system is probably a little more reliable if you dont take care of it, but it too will eventually malfunction with the lack of propper care. i havent messed around with the piston system much, most of what i know about it is from gun mags, which are unreliable to say the least. however it has worked for years on ak's and other systems. That said, i dont think it would be a bad idea to switch to the piston, but its not necessary. sorry to ramble. and thank you too for your service.
aaron

[mike in co]

just for the drool factor....





taken in my gun room/armory/basement tonight....

mike in co

[crabo]

Soooooo, 6.5 Grendal, or 6.8 and why? This would be for hunting.

Thanks,

[82nd airborne]

i have taken deer with a 110gr out of the 6.8, does a phonominal job! cant vouch for the 6.5. I did shoot a cull buck while he was running dead away from me up a steep incline @ 102 yrds. the bullet entered at the front of the tender loins angling thru the vitals and stopped in the skin of his chest. Perfect mushroom. not too much velocity, not too little. even tho he had a jacked up rack ( a bladed tine and a main beam with a complete twist in it.) he tasted darn good.

[Moonie]

Ok, I've done all of this research and can tell you that the 6.8 drops out of the air at 300 yards and the 6.5 kills like the hammer of god at 1,000 yards... At least the Grendel folks would have you think that. Seriously the ballistics are very close to each other. 6.8 rounds are easier to find and 6.8 specific parts are cheaper than the 6.5. If you are planning on shots under 300-350 stick with the 6.8, if over that...use something MUCH bigger than either for humanely taking game, seriously.

BTW I went with 6.8, I drink no ones cool aid!

The 6.5 guys like to compare against the old spec I chamber in the fast twist barrels in 6.8 which limited the round, the new spec II chamber and 1-11" or 1-12" twists are about 200fps faster than the old spec I chamber with similar pressures.

[BD]

I've killed a truck load of critters with the 6.5 out of my old swedes. It's easy for me to believe that I could do the same out of an AR. So, How does one go about building an accurate 6.5 AR?
Who's got the accurate barrels? What kind of velocity can I get out of a 20" barrel with 120s? 140s? I have an AR in .223, and one in .450. I have an upper in the drawer ready to go.
BD

[mike in co]

I've killed a truck load of critters with the 6.5 out of my old swedes. It's easy for me to believe that I could do the same out of an AR. So, How does one go about building an accurate 6.5 AR?
Who's got the accurate barrels? What kind of velocity can I get out of a 20" barrel with 120s? 140s? I have an AR in .223, and one in .450. I have an upper in the drawer ready to go.
BD

you need to find the bolt and bbl extention...those are the two harder ones to find.

then a smilth that knows ar's.

pick a bullet weight, an oal( a 223 lower or a 308 lower)......and go from there.

design a reamer for yor combination...or use one in production.

my small group with my custom br ar10 is a 0.116..................................(308 win br)

mike in co

[Curlymaple42]

I've killed a truck load of critters with the 6.5 out of my old swedes. It's easy for me to believe that I could do the same out of an AR. So, How does one go about building an accurate 6.5 AR?
Who's got the accurate barrels? What kind of velocity can I get out of a 20" barrel with 120s? 140s? I have an AR in .223, and one in .450. I have an upper in the drawer ready to go.
BD

2500-2600fps with a 120grSMK out of my 22" barrel made by Lothar Walther. 1" groups at 150yds no problem. Building three 18" hunting 6.5Grendels right now. One for me, one for a friend, and one for a guy in AZ. The 22" is too heavy for running around in the woods up north chasing whitetails! I have a TC Encore with a 15" barrel (pistol) coming in 6.5Grendel too. Great BC's on the 6.5 bullets. 140gr is too heavy I guess. I run 120gr bullets almost exclusively. I could run lighter bullets to really zip it up. I guess the 108-107gr bullets really are the best. Will the 6.5Grendel do anything better than the 6.8SPC at Maine deer hunting ranges? Doubt it. Is the 6.5Grendel a cool sexy little round? Yup. I got a .50Beowulf too just in case bears or zombies attack. Heehee...

[crabo]

I am thinking about something with more punch for pigs than the 223, when trying to get multiple hits.

[dk17hmr]

6.8 with 110gr V-Max flat kills deer


Than again so does the 223 with 55gr Nosler Ballistic tips.

[GabbyM]

I'd consider a varmint bullet as a handicap when deer hunting. I know lots of deer are taken every year with V-Max but they are varmint bullets. Nosler makes two Accubond hunting bullets for the 6.8mm. As far as I know they are the only two game hunting bullets made for the 6.8 SPC. Aside from the ones you can pour yourself.