First .45 ACP, failure and potential success?

[bigboredad]

I had a lee tc tl mold that caused fits for my springfield 1911 after lots of help hear I decided on the rcbs 230-rn. it was a tad bit spendy but it feeds wonderfully in my 1911 . It is not a true copy of the g.i. ball but close enough. I have been very happy with the mold it drops about .453 using straight ww. amd again I removed the barrel and used it to set my oal I have know Idea what the actual number is.

[Edubya]

All the gunsmith did was clamp the slide in a vise with the muzzle pointing down, and hit the back strap with his hand, forcing the slide to move back and eject the stuck round.

AK, In the future, if that ever happens again, either drill out a hole in a 2X4" to allow your barrel to fit into and just push hard on the grip with the barrel aligned into that hole forcing the cartridge to eject or use the ejection port to hang up on a wooden shooting bench and again push the grip downward. I know that this does not explain it well and I wood have trouble explaining it in a thousand words, just look at the gun and think about forcing the grip forward while holding the slide back.

EW

[AKsoldier]

AK, In the future, if that ever happens again, either drill out a hole in a 2X4" to allow your barrel to fit into and just push hard on the grip with the barrel aligned into that hole forcing the cartridge to eject or use the ejection port to hang up on a wooden shooting bench and again push the grip downward. I know that this does not explain it well and I wood have trouble explaining it in a thousand words, just look at the gun and think about forcing the grip forward while holding the slide back.

EW

No worries - makes perfect sense. I can envision the entire process. Thanks!

[Mk42gunner]

Para Ordnance sent us their own hi-cap mags, and the springs are so strong I am unable to load them to their capacity without the aid of a speed-loader. And I can CRUSH most men's hands.

This is a big clue. Try another magazine; if the magazine spring is putting to much pressure on the round in the feed lips, it can slow the return velocity of the slide so much that there isn't enough energy left to fully chamber the cartridge and return to battery.

I have never seen a magazine fora 1911, single stack or widebody, that couldn't be loaded by hand.

Using the barrel for a chamber fit gage is a good idea.


Robert

[Tedak]

I had the same problem of failure to go into battery with the 452-228 1R (sized .452") in my RIA 1911. I had to reduce the OAL dramatically (1.200") in order for it to chamber reliably. The finished product looked ridiculous... but it worked. I used the naked barrel as a gauge, as mentioned earlier in this thread.

I traded-up to a S&W 1911 (for other reasons), and I am seating the same boolit out at 1.250" with no chambering issues and it is as accurate as I can shoot it.

I'd hold off on buying those FMJ's....

[AKsoldier]

Thanks again for the help folks! I finally found the time to break it down and used the barrel as a "go/no-go" for three different loaded rounds: A Winchester factory 230 hardball, my hand-loaded 230 hardball, and one of my Lee 228 cast handloads. Both of the hardball loads fit all the way in, but the cast load hung up about .090" out.

It seems most of you are steering me right - I'm going to load up a few tonight and seat them a little deeper and see if that solves the problem.

[Josh Smith]

A friend of mine had the exact same problem with his widebody Para.

I advised him to run the finished round through the resizing die with the decapper pulled. That worked. Had him then get a Lee FCD. No problems since.

I just figure Paras have tight chambers.

I do agree that the magazines could be a lot of the problem.

How is the extractor tension? Tight, just right?

Josh

[AKsoldier]

I think tight chamber is it. I loaded some cast rounds seated deeper and they get hung up before going all the way in. I'm thinking I need to get a .451 sizing die. My sizing die is a cheap Lee model. I'm concerned the die would suffer damage if I pushed loaded rounds through it. I think I'll just hold off and get a .451.

[Doby45]

Have you slugged the barrel? How do you know what size your specific 1911 requires if you have no slugged the barrel? Really tight chamber could also mean really tight bore. Might just need to have the chamber reamed to loosen it up a bit.

[HangFireW8]

I understand break-in, I've been told 1911's in particular like to have a fair amount of use before they start functioning well. I plan to "bite the bullet" (pun intended) and invest in about 500 230 gr. hardball bullets to load up and get it loosened up and working.

I have a different suggestion. Modern UMC and USA (Rem and Winchester) 45 hardball is under spec by about 125FPS. If you want to break it in with real GI hardball, hand load some 230gr ball to 830fps.

Not only does it function better, but your gun may actually shoot to point of aim instead of well under.

I have to shake my head at the modern "break it in" culture vis-a-vis 1911's. An old, properly made Colt's Government Model just worked. Most of our modern 1911 clones seem to have lost something in translation. I suffered with one of these new wonder brand 1911's for a while, fixed half a dozen things wrong with it, finally sold it off and got an old Colt, that fixed the rest. Well, I did send it back in to have the front sight staked back on straight.

It shouldn't take 500 rounds and a live-in gunsmith to make a 1911 work. If everyone returned their **** for fixing to the manufacturers, they would fix their problems or go out of business trying to. In the mean time we are coddling the idiots making this stuff, making excuses for them and doing their work for them.

Just my opinion. If it doesn't work after 100 rounds, send it back. Send it back every 100 rounds after that every time it has a stoppage until its fixed. A good 1911 has freaking AMAZING reliability. It is hard to find a good 1911 anymore.

-HF

[243winxb]

Take measurements of your loaded rounds. They should not be larger than the maximums shown here. http://www.stevespages.com/page8d.htm Click the 45 acp. Your loaded rounds should fall into & out of the barrel. If all else fails, have the gun smith run a 45acp chamber reamer in to your barrel, open it up a little.

[skeettx]

Hello All
Here is a different tact.
The ammo is oversize, AK, and the Lee sizer should be fine.

If you have a spare non carbide 45 ACP sizing die or a friend who has one, take 7 loaded rounds , lube the cases SLIGHTLY and size them in the full length die slowly.

Or come over to my house and I will do it for you.

Is Amarillo close to the Last Frontier?

Load and shoot and report results
Mike

[35remington]

Please measure the outside diameter of your rounds before concluding anything is wrong....if the round is within spec, it's the overall length.

If it's not within spec, you need to determine why and correct it. I doubt a thousandth smaller sizer is the cure for your problem. Your chamber clearance should be plenty for a .452" bullet. Crooked bullet seating, causing a bulge in one side of the case from the crookedness also has the potential to make rounds oversized. Check your bullet/seating stem for correct fit of the ogive into the stem.

Sizing finished rounds in the sizing die has the potential to squeeze the case and bullet excessively, loosening bullet pull and causing bullet setback as it travels up the feedramp. Such cartridges may cause higher pressure, not a good thing. This is not intended by the manufacturer of your dies as a normal loading procedure! Before someone mentions the LFCD, please note that it is larger in diameter in its sizing than a conventional sizing die, reducing the amount of "oversqueeze."

Figure out why first before attempting ill advised corrections.

As I and others have previously mentioned, the Lee has a long bearing surface and short ogive, and overall length may have to be drastically shorter than a ball round to get it to chamber fully without being stopped short by hitting the rifling origin. Short throats in 45 ACP's are very common.

Try seating depth (once you're sure bullets are being seated straight) reduction to as short as 1.200" to see if they will chamber.

Also, measure the case mouth diameter after the bullet is seated. This should be .472" or less. If it is not you need to taper crimp to remove the flare left from the case belling step. Further, measure the outside diameter of the case over the bullet right about in the middle of where it's seated. This should also be less than the spec for the 45 to allow proper chambering.

[35remington]

243's pictures are a good practical way to determine if your rounds fit properly and it is a great help that he posted them.

However, the word "headspace" in describing how the rounds fit is incorrect. Headspace is the measurement between the chamber stop shoulder and the breechface. It is not correct to call cartridge fit "headspace" when it gives no reference to the location of the breech as in these pictures.

Some hoods are fit with no gap to the breechface; others, like on some of my 1911's, have a slight gap so an above flush round will still work properly and headspace correctly.

However, following the pictures will produce rounds that will function correctly. Just don't be confused by the words above the pictures that claim such a depiction is a representation of headspace. Without the breech/hood relationship being known, it's no such thing.

The second from the right "flush headspace" picture may not be flush headspace at all.....it's just flush with the hood. The far right picture may still represent a cartridge that works correctly in many guns. It is possible that it may not, though, so it's of some value but it doesn't represent headspace.

But it's still darn helpful as a picture aid. Thanks, 243.

[StarMetal]

Ditto 35remington, the man knows what he is talking about. I'd bet my firearm collection that either 35remington or I could solve the problem in about 2 minutes if we had the gun, brass, dies, and bullets in hand. You don't have to buy a taper crimp die to remove the mouth flare on the case. You can adjust a roll crimp to just do that.

I cannot count the of 45acps I've owned and never have these kind of problems. I also shoot big 255-260 grain SWC's meant for the 45 Colt from my 45acp's too with no problems. Probably my most difficult 45acp is my Ruger Blackhawk with it's darn tightest chambers I've ever seen on a 45acp in my life, but with judiciousness reloading I even get that to work very well.

The one thing mentioned I would never ever do, and 35remington mentioned this too, is size down a loaded round because you're not only sizing the case down you're sizing the bullet down. You would never get any kind of accuracy and more then likely get leading and other headaches.

I would first size the casings down. Then I would try those casings in barrel that has been removed from the gun. Then primer, powder, and bullet them up. Mic your bullets to make sure they aren't fatter then .452. Now try this loaded round in the barrel and go by the pictures 243 posted...see how it fits, how easy it enters the chamber. You may have to adjust your seating depth. If the seating depth changes A LOT from the reloading manual you are using towards deeper seating, then cut your load back a tad. Throw those OAL measurements in the book out the window. Use that barrel for a gauge.

[35remington]

Starmetal, good point about the bullet seating depth and how it drives up pressures if the bullet seats deeper.

No disagreements with roll crimping working either on the ACP as of course it can, contrary to what some may believe. The point is knowing to do it properly to remove any flaring.

I see a lot of guys having chambering issues because they haven't turned in the case mouth bell and the cartridge just kind of wedges to a stop as the flared case mouth approaches the front of the chamber.

Make sure the flare is gone!

[xringshutr]

This may or may not help everyone to figure out the problem, but these these hi-cap Para's that can be special purchased during deployments also have an extremely stiff recoil spring. I'd bet money that when the slide locked into battery from the over length round (that's my theory to the problem too BTW) it was not easy to clear! They are definetely set up for full house GI Ball ammo. They are however really accurate 1911's. Very tight tolerances all the way throughout.

[johnlaw484]

If you find that the loaded rounds are oversize for your chamber you may want to consider a Lee factory crimp die. The FCD sizes the loaded round to max, specs. Some here curse the FCD, but the complaint is due to it sizing down large boolits, which can be a plus in this case. Just run the rounds through the die backed off so as to not crimp, if they are already crimped, and it will remove any bulges or oversizes. You don't state what brass you used, but if the brass was fired in a gun with an unsupported chamber (Glock and a few others) you may have a bulged case that most sizing dies will not remove completely. Lee has a bulge buster kit for cheap that will remove the bulge even on loaded rounds.

Always use a factory crip die with a 1911. I had the same problem with my Kimber, Remington, Taurus and Colt.
Check the maximum case lenght.
Maximum overall lenght 1.275.
1911's are like women they they all have the same parts, but all like different things.

[olmarriedman]

I've used some Lee alox that came with the sizer and put some powdered graphite. You get black fingers, but have shot over a hundred rounds with no jams or cleaning.