First .45 ACP, failure and potential success?

[fredj338]

You didn't say what kind of "jamb" you were getting. I run the exact same bullet in 5 diff 45acp, (40 1911s & an XD, all work fine. OAL runs a bit shorter than other designs. You MUST taper crimp, uncrimped rounds will refuse to chamber. Use enough powder; I rarely find starting laods work in most semiautos.

[AKsoldier]

First, I'm pretty intimately familiar with the 228-1R. And no, it ain't in any way a duplicate of factory ball. Look a little more closely. It has more bearing length and a shorter nose length than regular ball. 1R means 1 radius ogive. Ball or 230 FMJ's are two radius ogive.

This is the help I was seeking!

Your eyes aren't attuned to small differences in bullet appearance yet, and how that affects proper overall length and functioning. We'll get you up to speed.

Yeah, I can see what you're talking about now when I compare them side-by-side.

Don't set its overall length by a milspec round. The short nose of the 228-1R means that if loaded to the same length as factory ball, too much bearing surface will be out of the case, and the gun won't lock up because the bullet will hit the lead (rifling origin) and prevent full chambering. I think this is my problem. It makes the most sense given the "symptoms".

"The pistol jammed with four different factory loads, then locked up tight with my hand-loads using my cast boolits."

Ding Ding Ding!!! Just what you found to be true!

"I tried chambering another of my cast rounds after the WD-40 and it's stuck again. I'm thinking there's something else going on here."

Once again, confirmation of what I've just stated.

Please post your overall length. OAL for factory stuff (Winchester 230 gr. FMJ cheap stuff - 1.265. My hand-loads with 230 gr. hard-ball: 1.260. The cast boolits: 1.255. Maybe I need to seat deeper?

Correct, for my guns to allow the cartridge to chamber properly, is in the range of 1.210" to 1.220."

Second, what magazines are you using? Please don't tell me they're Shooting Stars. Or Triple K's, or some other gawd awful magazine. Shooting Stars are predisposed toward problems because of an excessively weak magazine spring. Para Ordnance sent us their own hi-cap mags, and the springs are so strong I am unable to load them to their capacity without the aid of a speed-loader. And I can CRUSH most men's hands.

Triple K's? Well, one look at those and you know the "genius" who designed them didn't know a damn thing about a 1911.

Telling us the exact magazine and type, and the shape of the feed lips. A picture would be helpful.

Third and finally; describe the exact cartridge position when it jams; whether the case rim was fully under the extractor, case nearly in the chamber, etc. Just saying "it jammed" doesn't convey any information. Describing the exact cartridge position when it jams will give big clues to what's causing it. The gun attempts to chamber the round, but fails to move to full battery position. The slide is roughly 1/4 inch to the rear and will not move either forward or backward with any amount of convincing.

Without those "big clues" we will find it harder to diagnose, and a "good break in" might not be the answer to the problem.

A gun that suffers multiple jams right off the bat doesn't need a "good break in"......what's causing it is so out of sync that shooting it more ain't gonna help it start functioning better.

You problems are a lot different than what a simple "wearing in" would solve. A "break in jam" is a few minor hiccups, not a situation where it malfunctions as often as it feeds.

I have included more details here - I hope it helps. I need sleep now.

[35remington]

Seat to 1.220" and try again. If this doesn't work, try 1.210"

Remove the barrel from your pistol The loaded rounds should be flush with the barrel hood to chamber fully. This is the quick and easy way to determine if will work without wedging it in your pistol first.

Also, check case mouth diameter after bullet seating. It should be .472" or less. A taper crimp to .471" or .470" will turn in the case mouth flare left after the belling step.

This is SOP for reliability, as a flare to the case mouth will also prevent full chambering if the flare is wide enough.

Your "just out of battery" statement of 1/4 inch from closure pretty much indicate a dimensional fit issue.

[deerslayer]

Try just dropping in a case after you size it with no boolit. If the case fits then it is your boolit crimp/seating bulg or OAL giving you trouble. To narrow it down even further you can seat a boolit in a dummy round and cut it off flush with the brass with a hacksaw. Will that drop freely in the barrel. If not then it is a boolit sizing, bulge, or crimp issue. If it the cut off dummy round drops in then your OAL is probably to long.

I had a similar issue and If your OAL is to long PM me and I will forward a pm regarding this another member sent me that helped me alot.

[Echo]

Your description of your jams tells me that your magazines don't like the OAL of your rounds. Seating deeper should correct the problem. The rounds are not even contacting the leade, so they aren't seizing there. They are going in to the chamber cocked, and the boolit is seated too long to allow the round to find it's way.

FYI, and I know this goes against what fourteen other posters have said, seating the boolits out to engrave the leade is my recommendation. Disassemble the gun, adjust the OAL of the loaded rounds until, when dropping them into the chamber, they remain proud of the hood a small amount (not more than the thickness of the rim). That will reduce endplay to zero and improve accuracy, and the gun will have no trouble engraving the cast boolit lightly into the leade. I use this technique on all my .45ACP loading, and it works well in both my house gun and my wad gun. I use parallel-feed magazines in my guns.

And I'm a Distinguished Pistol Shot.

I have spoken.

[casterofboolits]

I have to agree with others who have suggested that OAL and taper crimp are the culprits. The taper crimp is extremly important. I have used that boolit in several 1911's with no problems as long as the OAL and taper crimp was correct. Also +1 on using the barrel as a go/no go gage.

I am a firm beliver in seating the boolit and taper crimping as seperate operations.

Also I size all my 45ACP boolits to .452

[StarMetal]

Ding Ding Ding.....I mentioned taking the barrel out and using it as a seating gauge. All the rest of the BS isn't pertinent if you would follow those instructions. Almost any seasoned 1911 aficionado know that trick.

All a big head ache over a very simple thing.

[Gohon]

Ding Ding Ding.....I mentioned taking the barrel out and using it as a seating gauge. All the rest of the BS isn't pertinent if you would follow those instructions. Almost any seasoned 1911 aficionado know that trick.
All a big head ache over a very simple thing.

Yep......what he said. I was trying to get some casts to shoot in my 1911 and was have zero luck. Took recommendations from all over the place as to OAL from A to Z and nothing worked. Finally took out the barrel and used it as a gauge and discovered I needed to go far below any recommended OAL. Just didn't seem right as far as what all the experts were saying but bingo........... they now load and shoot like a champ. BTW, it was the Lee 452-200-RF that I was working with.

[deerslayer]

Ding Ding Ding.....I mentioned taking the barrel out and using it as a seating gauge. All the rest of the BS isn't pertinent if you would follow those instructions. Almost any seasoned 1911 aficionado know that trick.

All a big head ache over a very simple thing.

Although this sounds very simple and it is. Look at this from a noob perspective (I am still a noob and just learned this recently). When you get into reloading all the common sense advice and safety advice says to find at least three books to check your load with and do not deviate.

I typically use the boolit mentioned above lee 200 grn rnfp. Book says Min OAL is 1.19 and I have come to find out that 1.156 works a whole lot better in my gun after some one explained that you could deviate from the books a little using the barrel as a go nogo gauge and reducing powder charge.

Now had someone on this board not taken the time to explain this to me and tell me how to make this work for my particular application I would still be having this problem. We were all new to this at one time or another!!

[theperfessor]

Too bad Lee doesn't make a 2R bullet with conventional lube grooves, I seem to see a lot of posts all concerning the 1R design. Since I don't use mule snot I'll stick to my Lyman 452374s. A 6 cavity 2R Lee with conventional lube grooves would grace my mold collection posthaste if one were offered!

[fredj338]

Your description of your jams tells me that your magazines don't like the OAL of your rounds. Seating deeper should correct the problem. The rounds are not even contacting the leade, so they aren't seizing there. They are going in to the chamber cocked, and the boolit is seated too long to allow the round to find it's way.

FYI, and I know this goes against what fourteen other posters have said, seating the boolits out to engrave the leade is my recommendation. Disassemble the gun, adjust the OAL of the loaded rounds until, when dropping them into the chamber, they remain proud of the hood a small amount (not more than the thickness of the rim). That will reduce endplay to zero and improve accuracy, and the gun will have no trouble engraving the cast boolit lightly into the leade. I use this technique on all my .45ACP loading, and it works well in both my house gun and my wad gun. I use parallel-feed magazines in my guns.

And I'm a Distinguished Pistol Shot.

I have spoken.

Maybe we read the problem diff but not going into battery has little to do with the mags. Loading rounds to engage the bullet into rifling is not only prone to failures to go into battery, it serves little purpose, does not improve accuracy & can raise pressures w/ the wrong powders.

[Echo]

AKS indicated that his rounds were hanging up with the slide 1/4" out of battery. In this case, the round is nowhere near the origin of the rifling - OAL is the culprit, as the round is indeed 'Jammed' in the chamber, with the full power of the recoil spring slamming it in, but not home.

And I stand by my position of seating boolits (not condom balls!) out to engrave the rifling. I suggest those who disagree try it out, and let me know the result. I seat my SWC's (452460) so the driving band is out maybe .030 from the mouth of the case, with no problems.

[StarMetal]

Maybe we read the problem diff but not going into battery has little to do with the mags. Loading rounds to engage the bullet into rifling is not only prone to failures to go into battery, it serves little purpose, does not improve accuracy & can raise pressures w/ the wrong powders.

I won't agree to engaging the rifling does not improve accuracy. This is an important concept in the whole ideal of loading cast bullets. One adjusts his load when doing this. I'm that you are aware that the super accurate target 22 rimfires do this very thing...engrave the bullet into the rifling. If you believe this all I can say is that you're missing out on a lot of wonderful and accurate cast shooting. Now don't get me wrong...of course someone can take this too far or do it entirely wrong as to cause problems.

[StarMetal]

AKS indicated that his rounds were hanging up with the slide 1/4" out of battery. In this case, the round is nowhere near the origin of the rifling - OAL is the culprit, as the round is indeed 'Jammed' in the chamber, with the full power of the recoil spring slamming it in, but not home.

And I stand by my position of seating boolits (not condom balls!) out to engrave the rifling. I suggest those who disagree try it out, and let me know the result. I seat my SWC's (452460) so the driving band is out maybe .030 from the mouth of the case, with no problems.

Take note that the barrel and slide move back roughly 1/8 inch with the barrel still fully locked up, so in essence we're looking at 1/8 inch out of battery. It's closer then you think.

[gray wolf]

A gun that suffers multiple jams right off the bat doesn't need a "good break in"......what's causing it is so out of sync that shooting it more ain't gonna help it start functioning better.
You problems are a lot different than what a simple "wearing in" would solve. A "break in jam" is a few minor hiccups, not a situation where it malfunctions as often as it feeds.

I am inclined to agree with the quote above.
Lets take the cast bullets out of the equationWhy did the factory ball fail to function ? Big clue right there.
If it wont feed factory ball ammo then there is something going on with the pistol right from the get go. If it wont feed what it was intended to feed --well it's a fat chance it's going to feed some Hy-bred bullet.
What did the gunsmith do ? and what kind of improvement did you get.
I have seen many 1911 that would not function out of the box, this could be one of them.
The 1911 is not a complicated platform BUT The geometry of all the parts must be correct for it to function. I wont list all the parts.
So what do we know about this pistol ?
It will strip a round from the mag, It hits the feed ramp, hits the top of the barrel,
and goes into the chamber 80% of the way in. It has to do these things to get as far as it gets. I doubt very much that the mags are allowing a straight in feed.
I discount crimp if the factory rounds are jamming also.
So why is the round not going into the chamber fully ?
Is the chamber to tight ? Um --big maybe.
I will step way out on a broken limb here and take a guess
EXTRACTOR--could it be to tight and not letting the bullet float enough to fully enter the chamber. The next time a round does not go fully into battery look and see if it is fully under the extractor.
As for the crimp--it only has to get rid of the case mouth flare.
Get this pistol shooting factory ball without a hick cup and then work on the lead.
or get a lead bullet like the Lyman 452374 and seat it to about 1.160 and play with that.
PLEASE do not take a tool to the feed ramp I don't think it's the feed ramp anyway.
OK out on another broken limb here, Look at the breach face, is is nicked, or to ruff ?
Or perhaps it needs a .001 taken from it.
These are just some different thoughts, I still think the whole problem still lies with the fact that it wont feed factory ammo.

Sam

[Fixxah]

Thank you for my freedom.

[slim1836]

I have the LEE 230 grain six cavity bullet mold which produces .452 diameter bullets. I run them through a LEE .451 sizer and have not yet had a problem with the feed or ejection out of my Colt 1911 made in 1917. I do taper the casing some to set the bullet on, but only slightly. I used the LLA straight from the bottle, some were heavier lubed than others and have so far made no difference in the weapon. I will be changing the lube in the future to try out some of the recipies I saw on the site.
I am new to casting and reloading and have been very happy so far with my results. A lot of my success is due to all of the posts on this site. Love to read the experiences of others.

[HeavyMetal]

The OP says he fired 60 rounds of ball ammo and only had 2 failures to feed. This could be frm being "tight" or poorly lubed before it was shot!

I will suggest double checking the size of the boolits and playing with a few dummy rounds made up to check OAL and fit to chamber.

Warning: WD-40 will really case issues with ammo if it is in contact long enough! Never use wd-40 as a gun lube or to clean or "lube" loaded ammo.


Just having a spray can in your garage can cause primer failures from across the room!

I am fortunate enough t have two of the Lee 6 banger group buy molds run 2 years ago on a real ball RNL design with a standard lube groove!

Wonder why that hasn't been re run??

Back to the OP's problem: I have heard more people complain about the Lee 228 1R design than any other mold Lee has!

I will suggest you retire said mold and buy a TC non tumble lube or or find the Lyman RNL design.

[AKsoldier]

Thanks for the continued input folks, I haven't had time to mess with it yet. I'll try the barrel as a go/no-go trick when I have time. This weekend is for the kids though. I promised them I'd finish building their tree house.

All the gunsmith did was clamp the slide in a vise with the muzzle pointing down, and hit the back strap with his hand, forcing the slide to move back and eject the stuck round.

I did have jams with all ammo I tried, but it still functioned and fired with everything else. My cast rounds simply won't chamber. It did chamber and fire the first one, but the second locked it up, and after cleaning the lube off the third did the same. Thanks for the tip on WD-40 by the way, I'll remove it from my loading table.

When I can, I'll play with the OAL a bit and see if I can get them to function. Have a great weekend everyone, and Fixxah - you're welcome. It is my honor to serve!

[StarMetal]

Thanks for the continued input folks, I haven't had time to mess with it yet. I'll try the barrel as a go/no-go trick when I have time. This weekend is for the kids though. I promised them I'd finish building their tree house.

All the gunsmith did was clamp the slide in a vise with the muzzle pointing down, and hit the back strap with his hand, forcing the slide to move back and eject the stuck round.

I did have jams with all ammo I tried, but it still functioned and fired with everything else. My cast rounds simply won't chamber. It did chamber and fire the first one, but the second locked it up, and after cleaning the lube off the third did the same. Thanks for the tip on WD-40 by the way, I'll remove it from my loading table.

When I can, I'll play with the OAL a bit and see if I can get them to function. Have a great weekend everyone, and Fixxah - you're welcome. It is my honor to serve!

You will know right away with the barrel for gauge if the cast bullet diameter is too fat too.