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Thread: Powder Cross Reference

  1. #21
    Boolit Master



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    The issue of which powders are the same is that the same company may produce the different powders but the chemical mix, coatings change the way it burns so that they maybe very close but not exactly the same.
    The rate at which they burn can be similar as is found when one buys surplus powders from military salvage sources and what they tell you to use as loading guidelines.
    I don't think you will ever find an exact cross reference as each lot of a given powder is close to the original design but there are still differences and it is up to us the end user to pay attention to lot to lot differences. While these differences are minor and are not really something we have to worry about it does happen.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMineA10mm View Post
    Wil,
    Can you cite a source for some of IMR's powders being sourced from ADI?? I was under the impression that even though Hodgdon bought IMR, the powder was all still made in the IMR plant in Valleyfield, Canada still.

    ADI has it on their website. Straight from the horses mouth. And no, not the cross reference chart. There was a page in the documents announcing the agreement with hodgdon.
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  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy spqrzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shdwlkr View Post
    The issue of which powders are the same is that the same company may produce the different powders but the chemical mix, coatings change the way it burns so that they maybe very close but not exactly the same.
    The rate at which they burn can be similar as is found when one buys surplus powders from military salvage sources and what they tell you to use as loading guidelines.
    I don't think you will ever find an exact cross reference as each lot of a given powder is close to the original design but there are still differences and it is up to us the end user to pay attention to lot to lot differences. While these differences are minor and are not really something we have to worry about it does happen.
    my .03 cents on the subject
    Wiljen started the thread with a good listing of which powders are in fact the same powder with different labels for different distributors/markets. Such as the classic H110 / WW 296 pair.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by wiljen View Post
    ADI has it on their website. Straight from the horses mouth. And no, not the cross reference chart. There was a page in the documents announcing the agreement with hodgdon.
    Thanks Wil, that helps a lot. FYI, I went to their website and couldn't find it out-and-out stating that anymore, but I did find this interesting piece of news in the FAQ section, which aligns with the posts I read in that other forum:

    Colour change of AR2205

    10 May 2007
    The colour of AR2205 has been made darker to align its appearance with other ADI sporting propellants sold in the US market. The change in colour has not changed the powder's ballistic performance therefore reloading data using AR2205 does not need to be altered.
    In several places on the site and in the downloadable load guide, it says AR2205 is "very similar" to IMR-4227 (and doesn't mention H4227).
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMineA10mm View Post
    I did find some discussion on another forum (via Google) that asserts that IMR-4227 is in fact from ADI. The discussion states that when Hodgdon decided to discontinue H-4227 and only market the IMR- version, they continued acquiring it from ADI, but had ADI coat it in graphite to make it black like the "old" IMR powder.

    I also found a criptic notation on the IMR website (now owned and operated by Hodgdon) which (in the history section of the "about us") said that "most" IMR powders are still made at the traditional plant in Canada... "Most" Hmmmm....
    Here are three relevant quotes and links:

    http://www.hodgdon.com/history.html
    To better serve our reloading customers Hodgdon Powder Company continues to grow. Hodgdon purchased IMRŽ Powder Company in October 2003. IMR legendary powders have been the mainstay of numerous handloaders for almost 100 years. IMR powders continue to be manufactured in the same plant and with the same exacting performance criteria and quality assurance standards that shooters have come to expect.
    http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handlo...ide/powder.asp
    A very fine grained, very fast burning rifle powder suited to .22 Hornet loads but also useful in some Magnum pistol loads. Its burning rate is close to that of IMR 4227.

    The most interesting is the Powder Equivalents table, which I don't know how to format, so here's the link:

    http://www.adi-limited.com/handloade...quivalents.asp

    At the bottom is the disclaimer:
    "NOTE: These tables are only approximate, showing equivalent values within about 5%."
    Last edited by nody; 02-20-2012 at 12:49 PM.

  6. #26
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    The IMR/H 4227 has been beaten to death already in other threads. New IMR 4227 says made in Australia on the cans and is made by ADI. Hodgdon used the stock of IMR they bought up then switched to ADI for current production and discontinued H4227 as the IMR product was the better seller. Call hodgdon tech and they will tell you as much.
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  7. #27
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    Here is the complexity in a nutshell. A reproduction chemical has a 5% rating of the baseline chemical. Of course, that means the lot you HAVE on the table is a PLUS or MINUS one of the ORIGINAL. Let's call the ORIGINAL as the lab grade. Any other subsequent lot is a generic grade by medical definition. That means the next lot you purchase can be off by a whole 10 percent from the one on the table. The point here is to suggest that gunpowders we purchase will never be lab grade unless by ACCIDENT. Of all the powders I have purchased over the years, only the VV powders have been what I call perfect in performance from lot to lot. Luck of the draw? Yes. But does it really matter? No, for the most part, because I assume generic grade on every lot no matter what. ... felix
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  8. #28
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    Also the reason why starting with Max loads is never recommended.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiljen View Post
    Also the reason why starting with Max loads is never recommended.

    You cannot possibly believe how many times I have preached that very thing to people I either was teaching to load or to people that had troubles with their loads from their own self taut ways.Robert

  10. #30
    Boolit Bub
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    This has made for some great reading,have always wondered about this

  11. #31
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    Does H4895 and H4831 have made in Australia on the container?

  12. #32
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    dont have any H4895 but the 4831 and 4831sc both do say made in AUS
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  13. #33
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    H414 is WW 760. Same powder, same facility.
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  14. #34
    Boolit Mold
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    MSDS sheets are the bible of where and what powders are. They don't want to mess around with liability issues (ie pointing the finger at the OEM)

  15. #35
    Boolit Bub Full Mold Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiljen View Post
    If you know of others, please add to this thread.
    Great list and handy resource.

    I think AS70N is a typo and needs to be AP70N for Universal.

  16. #36
    Boolit Mold
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    does anyone know if there is a match for h450 out there?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kasper80 View Post
    does anyone know if there is a match for h450 out there?
    H450 was the same powder as Winchester 785 which is also long since discontinued. To my knowledge, there is no direct replacement for H450 but Winchester Supreme 780, the various 4350s and 4831s, Accurate Magpro, Rl-19, and VV N160 should all be in the same general vicinity on the burn rate charts.

    some lots of surplus wc852 maybe the original H450 but there considerable lot to lot variation. Wc852 can be quite a bit faster so be sure to work up from a safe low starting point until you know the burn rate of the lot you are working with. I've seen 852 as fast as H380.
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  18. #38
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    Anyone have a source for comparison charts for AA4100? There's very little info on it that I can find, and that and longshot are all I can find locally. The longshot has been on the shelf for weeks. I don't think anyone here knows what to do with it. BTW, I load for 38 sp, 357 mag, 40 SW, 45 acp, and 45/70 marlin.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbriggs57 View Post
    Anyone have a source for comparison charts for AA4100? There's very little info on it that I can find, and that and longshot are all I can find locally. The longshot has been on the shelf for weeks. I don't think anyone here knows what to do with it. BTW, I load for 38 sp, 357 mag, 40 SW, 45 acp, and 45/70 marlin.
    If you go to the website that was put on here you will see the info on alot of what you are asking.I know it dose not have longshot but it dose have the other one.
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  20. #40
    Boolit Mold
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    If you download the Alliant MSDS sheets they reveal some interesting info, on the product name line there is the following for 10X, 15, 19, 22, 25

    "Smokeless powder, RP 12 ReloderŽ 10X"

    "Smokeless powder, RP 11 ReloderŽ 15"

    "Smokeless powder, RP 14 ReloderŽ 19"

    "Smokeless powder, RP 15 Reloder 22"

    "Smokeless powder, RP 25 ReloderŽ 25"

    For Reloder 17 it says-

    "Smokeless powder, EI-Niesen 145 - ReloderŽ 17"

    For Reloder 33-

    "Smokeless powder, EI-Niesen 170 - ReloderŽ 33"

    This is from the Alliant MSDS sheets.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check