Advice needed

[Maven]

joeb, I forgot to mention it, but I see that you've discovered the CVA & T/C pre-cut patches on your own. They are quite good and a bit more convenient than buying fabric by the yard (assuming you can find the correct thickness) and cutting them by hand. If they shoot well, be sure to mic them (uncompressed) so you'll know what fabric to look for in the future. Also, if the patch burns through (usually referred to as a "blown" patch), put an unlubed/dry patch on top of the powder charge (70gr. is plenty for 50yd. work) and then seat a patched ball on top of it. Btw, patch lube can be saliva, a commercial BP bore cleaner such as "Moose Milk" (excellent and available through Winchester Sutler), T/C "Bore Butter," etc. You can also make moose milk from 1 part water to 5-7 parts water soluble machining oil with a capful of Mr. Clean/Lestoil added. It will also clean your bbl. Once you seat the patched (and lubed) ball and BEFORE you cap the nipple, swab the bore with a dry patch. Do this every time you load for max. accuracy. Hope this helps!

[kenjuudo]

Maven,You have an original Mowrey or the Deer Creek version?

jim

[joeb33050]

Yeterday I recorded weights of Pyrodex RS for various settings on a Lyman 55 measure, for use with the .50 CVA Hawken. I also figured out how the capper works.
I remember some talk about static and blown up measures with plastic hoppers. Is it safe to throw charges with the Lyman 55 with plastic hopper and Pyrodex RS?
Did one ever blow up, or is that a rumor. Is that the right way to spell rumor? It doesn't look right. Roumor?, no,rumour? looking better, roumour?
Thanks;
joe b.

[Maven]

kenjuudo & joeb, The Mowrey isn't original, but I'm not sure who actually produced it: Mowrey Gun Works in TX maybe. I purchased it from Mountain State Muzzleloading in the '90's. While it is a joy to shoot offhand, the workmanship left something to be desired. To wit, the ramrod pipes were cold soldered and came loose and the dovetail for the rear sight was not at 90 deg. to the barrel/bore. I also didn't care for the German silver front sight, which didn't match the notch on the rear one, and promptly replaced it with a T/C Patridge sight. On the other hand, the bbl. is 1" in diameter and extremely accurate once I found the right patch thickness (.018", uncompressed).

joeb, It IS "rumor" or "rumour" if you're English or Canadian. As for the use of BP or Pyrodex in Lyman #55 as well as other brands, I don't think there's much empirical evidence supporting the contention that it's dangerous practice. If static is a concern (in Fla.?), wipe the inside of the hopper with one of the anti-static sheets you throw in the clothes dryer. But this begs the question, why use a powder measure at all? I.e., BP and Pyrodex are notoriously inefficient propellants so a grain or two in either direction will make no difference in performance @ 50yd. Adjustable BP/Pyro. measures, e.g., T/C and Uncle Mikes, work very well and are easier to use (and more portable) than the Lyman, et al. If you need to calibrate them for an exact charge, e.g., 70gr., you can do so with your powder scale and calculator (to establish the arith. mean & SD).

[kenjuudo]

Maven,
If it was new in the 90's then it came from Deer Creek Products, Waldron IN. They bought out Mowrey in the 80's I believe. They are up the road from me about four miles, don't kick the cats and they will usually treat ya right on a case of powder, always got a rack of seconds to pick through cheap.

jim

[gregg]

versifier

I'm with Versifier 110 % I have seen a TC barrel shoot well.
But I seen way more shoot bad. Same with the rest.
Get serious get a new Barrel.
Your right CVA good place to start. I did the same.
Did not keep it long and let someone else have fun with
it.

[joeb33050]

I shot this CVA Hawken yesterday with 50-60 grains of Pyrodex RS, .490" round balls, TC pillow ticking pre-lubed patches and Remington #11 caps. All loads fired, none misfired. Accuracy at 25 yards was OK, trouble at 50 yards with a loose sight and cleaning questions. So:
When or how often should I clean? The ball/patch start ?firm?, I wouldn't want to put a much thicker patch down the bore-it's tight. After 10 shots it's still tight and no problem putting the patched ball down the bore. But I felt guilty not cleaning, so I cleaned.
I know I'm supposed to use BP only, I've used BP with ~ 3 grains of smokeless and it keeps the gun clean so I can shoot forever without cleaning. Can I duplex this rifle with ~3 grains of black?
I pour the powder into a funnel on a 3' 3/8" copper tube, so it goes to the bottom of the barrel. I tried breathing through the tube, a la BP puffing to keep fouling soft. Does anyone else do this?
I sometimes shoot BP cartridge pushing a wet patch through the bore after each shot and shooting with the wet bore-it works fine. Should I push a wet patch through the bore above the loaded ball before shooting?
After I got home I cleaned with hot wate and oiled everything. Do I need to take the lock off the stock and clean it? The barrel comes out easy with the wedge/key out.
Thanks;
joe b.

[joeb33050]

Oh, threw charges with a Lyman 55 into a pill bottle into the funnel. The Lyman 55 didn't blow up, yet.
joe b.

[Maven]

joeb, (1) For target work, a tighter ball/patch combo. is good. The T/C patches are correct, so long as they're not "blown" or severely frayed after firing. (2) After you seat the patched ball (Make sure you put ~40lbs. pressure on them when they're all the way home.) and before capping, swab the bore with a cleaning patch dampened with BP solvent (lots of types to choose from, including home-brews) and then run a dry patch through it to remove any moisture. Do this after every shot.* (3) If you study the construction of BP bbls., you'll notice a direct channel from the nipple or touchhole in a flintlock, to the atmosphere. I.e., pressure is directed OUTWARD, toward YOU. Ergo, NO DUPLEXING EVER in these arms! (4) I'm sure you can use powder measures made for smokeless [powder], but they can be a PITA to set up and a few grains in either direction will make no meaningful difference in velocity or accuracy. Volumetric BP/Pyro. measures are inexpensive and easily obtained, as are Lee dippers: They work and are a hell of a lot easier to use than the Ly. #55.


*I no longer use the ramrod that came with my rifles. You can purchase a stainless steel one + muzzle guard from Dixie, Midway, MidSouth, et al., but make sure the cleaning jags, etc., fit those threads.

[44man]

Keep ALL smokeless away from a muzzle loader unless you have the Savage which is designed for it. Even less then 3 gr's will up pressures.
Don't blow through your powder charging tube, it will gather moisture, make powder stick in it and can ruin some of the powder on the way into the bore.
If you are using a good lube like Young Country you do not ever have to wipe the bore until done for the day. If a ball gets a little hard to push down, just add some extra lube to the next patch and it will clear it up.
You can wipe between shots but don't use a soaked patch. Take a patch and run a line of cleaner or water from corner to corner, stack in a jar until full and let sit a while. Each patch will be just damp enough to wipe without leaving the bore wet.
The proper ball-patch fit should be hard to start. You should have to really smack the short starter hard to get the ball in the muzzle. ( Don't beat on it, one hard smack is what you want.) If you take a large piece of patch material and lube it, start a ball and pull it back out with the material, you should see the weave of the cloth engraved in the ball FROM THE BOTTOMS OF THE RIFLING GROOVES.
I would be shooting a .495 ball and .020" patches out of that gun if the bore measures .500 and the rifling is .010" deep. For shallower rifling, reduce the patch thickness to .012 to .015".
I would also work to 90 gr's of FFG or the same VOLUME of Pryrocrap.
Go to the fabric store with a micrometer and buy denim in different thicknesses to test. Make sure you COMPRESS the material when measuring. Store bought patches vary too much in thickness from bag to bag and year to year. Pre lubed patches are junk, some of the lubes are nothing but some light oil and won't soften fouling, they make it worse. I used to buy TC .020" unlubed patches and found they changed to .012" without changing the number on the package. Your accuracy will go south with every purchase of patches. Buy material and a good lube!
Track of the Wolf sells good bulk patch material too. Do not overlook how important the patch is, it is not there for looks. Don't fall into the trap of EASY loading! The tight ball and patch will go down easy if started right.
Do NOT wipe the bore after loading, the bore condition is set from the lubed patch which softened the fouling and lubed the bore. Wiping will only push a wad of fouling against the ball and you can't control it. If it dries out before the next shot, you have wasted the shot. You will be changing the slipperyness of the bore from shot to shot and slippery is not good for accuracy. Neither is a hard, dry fouling or a plug of it on the ball.
You are getting WAY too anal!

[omgb]

Nice to hear back from you. Please allow me to add my $.02:


1. Don't use smokeless in any amount with a ML. You are inviting a serious accident.

2. Pyrodex will not build up fouling nor do you need to blow tube it .... really, I promise you, you don't.

3. The first shot fired will usually not go the same place the other shots will. It's just the nature of BP muzzle loaders. It will be hunting close, but not target close if you catch my drift.

4. The drop tube and measured charges thing is admirable but way too much trouble for the little accuracy gain you might get. Just volume measure your charges right there in the field. It's easy, it works well and it keeps things simple.

( I have a target at home fired from 50 yards using a Lyman Great Plains rifle and BP where I've got 5 shots in a clover leaf with one flyer, ...the first shot of course. I used a CVA measure tube.)

5. If you think the ball is getting tough to load after a few shots, just run a damp patch down the bore, then a dry patch and you should be all set. The first shot from that now clean bore will most likely be high and to one side.

6. Pyrodex can deliver some excellent accuracy. There is no reason to feel guilty for using it. I prefer BP and can get it cheaply enough in my neck of the woods so that's what I use. Still, I've shot many many many lbs of Pyrodex over the years. It's best quality is that it does not accumulate fouling like BP.
Thus, your loading problems should not include a bore that is too fouled to load. FWIW, I can't imagine that your duplex load is gaining you anything and more than likely is causing your groups to open up. Try just plain Pyrodex and see if I'm not right.

Now, one more practical caveat. The nipple on a cap lock is the weak link in shooter safety. It directs hot gasses at plasma temperatures back toward your face. Normally, with a good nipple, the hammer contains and redirects this flash to the side. However, nipples wear and as they do the volume of gas permitted to escape the barrel and come back at the shooter increases. Eventually, it becomes a hazard. With BP and the subs, you can see this happening as the process is slow, thus you have lots of time to change nipples. In fact, you should be able to shoot 500 to 1,000 rounds with cheap nipples and not have a problem. With lined, more expensive-alloy nipples, you can double or triple that figure. When you duplex however, you throw a new factor into the mix that just might get you "F%&*$@" up bou coup quick. Most smokeless burns hotter than BP or its substitutes and at much higher pressures. So when you add it, in any amount, you increase pressure and temperatures. This will burn out a nipple much quicker with the potential for sudden and unexpected failure a real concern. The moral of the story? Don't duplex.

Now, could you duplex with some 4F under that Pyrodex? Yes, but there would be no advantage in doing so. Pyrodex burns cleanly as it is and the little fouling it leaves is soft and never hard. Thus 4F will only add a fouling agent to the gun that is not now present.

Try the straight Pyrodex deal before you start getting your panties up in a wad about patching. It may be that you need to get different material but I'll bet you don't.

One more thing, Hornady makes these little plastic wad cups in 50 cal. They are only available directly from Hornady as far as I know. I have had excellent results using these. They do not require patching nor do they require lube when using Pyrodex. These cups are not at all like the "wonder wads" sold back in the late 70s early 80s. Those tended to shift foreword when the rifle was carried or moved around and could result in an air gap between charge and ball which of course, is a BP no-no of the first order. These Hornady cups are designed not to do that and after firing 100 of them, I can say with certainty that they do not move until fired. If you are still having accuracy problems after doing what I and others have recommended, I'd give these a try before I went down to the yardage store and started micing cloth. If these increased your accuracy, then I would try different patches as the patch material was obviously a major factor in your accuracy performance.

I hope this helps. Take care and keep us updated.

[StarMetal]

Oldfeller and Jumptrap know about a secret clarkm type test that ole Starmetal did with a certain smokeless powder and a muzzle loader. Let's just say shooting smokeless is like saying driving your car over 100 mph will result in a disaster.....meaning not necessarily so. Certainly by all mean don't do it, unless you have that special Savage. By the way I read about that Savage and it's made of a tough alloy able to withstand pressures up in the 110,000 psi range. Savage wasn't taking any chances I guess, although I think they took a big one as is.

DON"T SHOOT SMOKELESS IN MUZZLELOADERS

Joe

[slughammer]

I shot this CVA Hawken yesterday with 50-60 grains of Pyrodex RS, .490" round balls, TC pillow ticking pre-lubed patches and Remington #11 caps. All loads fired, none misfired. Accuracy at 25 yards was OK, trouble at 50 yards with a loose sight and cleaning questions..........
............
After I got home I cleaned with hot wate and oiled everything. Do I need to take the lock off the stock and clean it? The barrel comes out easy with the wedge/key out.
Thanks;
joe b.

Bench shooting at 25 yards sounds like a waste of ball, patch and powder. I have a Flintlock CVA St. Louis Hawken and at 50 yards there is no trouble putting them into a 3" black. My load is 85gr of 3FG or 90gr of 2FG, GOEX. Patches are Ox-Yoke prelubed; I have .010, .015 & .020 thickness.

You should take the lock out. Clean it with a tooth brush and Hoppes Black Powder Lube. Then blast with WD 40 and compressed air. Then add a little gun oil and put the lock back on. Probably more important on a poorly inletted flintlock; but if you don't take it off, how will you know if its ok?

If your CVA has the 1 in 60 twist it should stabilize and shoot round balls very well.

[44man]

Slug is right except I would NEVER use WD-40. It will not neutralize black powder fouling very well. I have had bare steel rust with the crap and it will dry and gum up works. Use Birchwood-Casey Sheath to lightly coat all steel. In 55 years of shooting, it is the best thing I have ever used.
And slug, you should get cloverleafs at 50 yd's from the bench. And less then 3" at 100. Methinks you have too small of a ball!
I know, everyone uses the TC method to load easy. Back then in Ohio with Bill Large and Dan Kindig, they would use a small hole gauge in the bore, and sell me a ball mould the same size. A .500 bore used a .500 ball and the .450 bore used a .450 ball, a .540 bore used a .540 ball, all with a .010" patch. I have since gone to .005" smaller balls and thicker patches for hunting but for accuracy, the bore size balls were king.
A .490, .440, .530 ball is too small for accuracy. Too hard to start if larger? What kind of whimps do we have today? Can't anyone SMACK a short starter? I watched guys at shoots pound the loads in with a hammer, come on, take your hand and HIT the starter. I see guys break a pile of cement blocks or bricks with their hand and nobody can start a little ball! I'm ashamed of all of you!

[joeb33050]

I took the lock out and cleaned it in hot soapy water with a toothbrush. The water got some dirty, not horrible. Hot rinse, the lock dried, then Marvel Mystery Oil.
I find that a 70 grain measure of Black filled with Pyrodex weighs 58 grains, so I'm told. Then I modified the Lyman 55 chart, I was shooting 59 and then 67 grain equivalents of Pyro. Means that a BP measure set on "70" holds 58 grains of Pyrodex. ?? Correct?
These loads kicked smartly, I'll try more, but there's plenty of crack in the report.
I found a ?ring? of fouling in the bore just above where the ball seated, I felt it while cleaning.
I'm not using the powder tube next week, I'll fling the powder in the muzzle in a funnel.
I hammer the ball/patch in with the rubber end of my mallet.
I could get a bigger ball in, wonder if the patch won't rip.
How about a ?.520 ball and no patch?"
The local wizards say they've all gone to 40 caliber RB, ~30-40 grains of 777 for accurate shooting to 100 yards. Counter to what you guys say.
There's no place to get BP or a good variety of accessories in the Miami Ft. Lauderdale area, or at least I can't find it.
Thanks for the help;
joe b.

[Maven]

joeb, According to Hodgdon's literature, Pyrodex is 20% less dense than BP. Ergo, 70gr. by volume should theoretically weigh 56gr. Your 58gr. is close enough, and probably reflects slight differences in retained moisture.

As for cleaning the lock, I do this maybe 1x/yr. unless I manage to spill bore solvent on it. Also, if the action is a bit rough, you can smooth the inner surface of the lock plate with a Cratex wheel in a Dremel tool (need one with a speed control or rig up a dimmer switch to control rpm's). The bad news is that you have to disassemble the lock to get at the plate.

I get fouling in the same place that you do, even with Pyro. which is why I'll use a wet, but not dripping, patch periodically, followed by dry patches. Trust me, you don't want moisture in the ignition channel. Also, you want to maintain a consistent bbl. condition for peak accuracy, so it doesn't hurt to dry patch the bbl. after seating the ball. (Don't worry about pushing fouling down on top of the RB either as it makes no difference if you do.) Btw, this is what Dutch Schoultz recommends and he was a champion BP shooter.

Pyro. v. BP v. 777: No need to apologize for your choice of propellant. We don't exactly have an abundance of choices up here either. The local Gander Mt. has some stuff, but they're geared mostly to in-lines and I don't think they carry powder of any kind. Besides, the supposed differences in accuracy between BP and Pyro. are anecdotal, not empirical. To wit, have you read of a carefully designed double blind experiment comparing them? I haven't, nor do I know of any.

Seating a RB sans patch: You can probably hammer a .520" RB downbore, but it will be distorted and it may leave lead where you don't want it. On the other hand, a slightly larger RB will be engraved by the rifling and may produce high accuracy until the bore fouls and then you no longer have a consistent bbl. condition.

RB + patch: I use .018" - .020" material (dense weave, calico print or undyed, etc.)* that I buy at a fabric store. The store personnel will be most attentive once you tell them what you're looking for. It also puts their minds at ease when they learn what "the weirdo with the micrometer" wants. I too have to use a plastic mallet with my ball starter (saves my palm) when using material of the above thickness. Try this stuff first and a .495" RB if .018" patches don't give the performance you're seeking.


*One of the members of our gun club is a competive flintlock shooter. He uses teflon-coated patching regularly. If I see him at tonight's meeting, I'll ask him where he gets it and PM you with that info.

[44man]

Sorry for calling some whimps. The plastic hammer is fine but use ONE whack. Don't tap it in or the ball will get deformed. I machine the end of my brass short starters to fit the ball and sprue perfectly so as not to flatten the ball.
Do not use lead without the patch because there is no lube to soften fouling or prevent leading. If the patch was not good, it would not have been used for hundreds of years.

[joeb33050]

"The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle" by Ned Roberts arrived yesterday and I've been reading furiously.
He mentions duplex charging with smokeless using Dupont Bulk Smokeless, there seems to be no agreement on a modern powder for duplex loading cartridge rifles today except that we stay away from the very fase ex bullseye, and use SR4759, IMR3031, etc.
I know I'll have to try this at some point.
He also mentions dropping the powder through a tube to the breech end of the barrel, and blowing/breathing through the barrel-breathe into the muzzle through the nipple. Softens the fouling.
The general sense is that a very tight patch/ball isn't required.
I like the book; his "Breech Loading Single Shot Match Rifle, with Waters, started me and many others on the Single Shot road.
joe b.

[waksupi]

Joe, you had better read that a bit closer. I do not think Roberts ever used a smokeless powder for a kicker. His reference to Dupont refered to black powder, I believe. Regardless, the rifles he was shooting were generally heavy bench rifles, with a lot more steel to them, than anything most of us have. I believe someone mentioned it before, but DO NOT USE ANY TYPE OF SMOKELESS POWDER IN A MUZZLELOADER! The inlines aren't in that class, and I have no idea what you can do with those.

[StarMetal]

Thanks Ric, the inlines were what I was talking about. That's all I'll mention for safety reasons.

Joe