Citric acid brass cleaner

[35Whelen]

Bama.......not a metallurgist and don't use pins. I was warned by a friend years ago when it first came out. I am wondering if in some way the pins are acting like little hammers and work hardening the brass by ever so gently peening the brass as its tumbled? Too much pins or not enough allowing it to fall hard on the brass? Again....just spit balling

[Bama]

Bama.......not a metallurgist and don't use pins. I was warned by a friend years ago when it first came out. I am wondering if in some way the pins are acting like little hammers and work hardening the brass by ever so gently peening the brass as its tumbled? Too much pins or not enough allowing it to fall hard on the brass? Again....just spit balling

If it was work hardening I would have thought it would show up on the necks since they should be affected equally plus they get the added work hardening when sized but I have had less than five out of 4000 rounds to have neck splits. That is what has me baffled because nothing I have come up makes sense. I run the tumbler almost full of water so the impact should be very minimal. I have started "slightly" putting a little anhydrous lanolin to make them as slick as dry tumbled brass as a test.

[Doc Highwall]

Could it be that the outside of the case is so clean, that the thinner part of the case towards the neck is able to grab the chamber walls, and hold tight enough that the case is stretched farther up?

[Bama]

Doc, that is the only physical explanation I could see that fits the failures location mid way on the case. I really like the way the pins clean and did not realize how much "stuff" built up inside a case till I started wet tumbling. I am using a small amount of lube on the outside of the case to make them a LITTLE more slick to test the theory. The ultimate strength of action does use a component of the friction between case and chamber and I do not want to give up the added safety margin. One post said car wax was used in cleaning which could also address condition and would be more controllable.

Popper, what wt did you consider as a short bullet. In the 308s I have been using 168 BTHP match but mostly Lee 180s powder coated. In 6X45 95gr BTHP match and 7-08 I settled on 130gr soup cans. All calibers completely fill the necks and also extend into shoulder area due to throat lengths. I have not noticed any signs of damage of the area that extends into shoulder area on any recovered bullets --but have only found very few.

[will52100]

I've been using SS media for about 5 years or so now and have had no issues, I use it on rifle and pistol ammo, black powder loads and smokeless. I load for 30-06 and 308 for the M1 Garand and M14, along with a few others. The M14 gets the most work out and I've got some Winchester nato brass that is on it's 8th firing with no signs of weakening, and the M14 is tough on brass. I figure I'll start getting split cases any time now, but so far so good. On the pistol brass I give it a shot of One-shot to make running through the progressive a bit easier even with carbide dies, on the rifle brass I use Lee lube.

Have you got pics of what the damage looks like?

[Bama]

Here are a set of pics of ones that I could get to show up on camera. After a partial separation, if one is found in box of 50 they all go to be recycled. Most were from a Mcgowen barrel, few from a Shaw. I did not have any 308s or 7-08 that cracked through before discarding. I hope you can see the fine line between felt tip arrows which means I got careless and didn't catch them first from inside.

[popper]

Sorry, I can't read - thought you were talking about necks. Yes, normal, not due to cleaning. I use dental pick to check the inside.

[will52100]

What are you shooting them in, a bolt gun or gas? Gas guns like the M14 are harder on brass due to the violence of the extraction. Looks like normal wear and tear to me. I know most people recommend no more than 3 firings on the M14 platform, I've gotten 8 so far, but that's with NATO spec brass, not commercial, and kinda lucky to be getting that much.

[Doc Highwall]

Those separation marks are definitely higher then normal. My first guess it they are too clean along with the chamber.

One trick I learned a long time ago when first firing a new case is, to leave a little case lube around the neck and shoulder so they can more evenly fill out matching the chamber on the first firing.

This is why I think that that cases are grabbing the sides of the chamber up towards the neck and shoulder where the case is thinner, and as the pressure builds up stretches the case head back towards the bolt face, causing the ring higher up.

[VinceG]

Wine making supply stores or websites are a good source of citric acid. It's also found among home canning supplies.

[Bama]

What are you shooting them in, a bolt gun or gas? Gas guns like the M14 are harder on brass due to the violence of the extraction. Looks like normal wear and tear to me. I know most people recommend no more than 3 firings on the M14 platform, I've gotten 8 so far, but that's with NATO spec brass, not commercial, and kinda lucky to be getting that much.

All shot in bolt actions with neck sizing only after the initial size. Friends I shoot with shooting same round in the same make of barrels get as much as 4 times the loading's and toss due to neck splits. Majority of brass is LC and is sorted by year. I believe Doc may be right about gripping between brass and chamber. In prior years failures would occur at or about 3/16 inch above solid portion of head. I will continue slightly lubing cases after loading for this batch and the try adding a little wax during cleaning as mention on earlier posts. Thanks guys-- it really helps to constructive input.

[will52100]

Surprised your getting that much stretch with a bolt gun, especially with LC brass, it's normally hard and thick. I wonder if there is something off about your chamber, or it needs polishing? Anyway, I'm thinking Doc Highwall is on the right tract with the idea of the cases grabbing the sides of the chamber and pressure stretching the case head toward the bolt face, just not sure what to do about it.

[Bama]

I don't think it is stretching very much. Using a RCBS precision mike they were only growing .001 at shoulder Max between sized and loaded and fired. The action is a a short action savage with a PT&G head. Today after shooting I went back to the dry method with HF coarse walnut hulls and a dollop of Mothers chrome and mag polish in a rotary tumbler followed by a quick turn in a vibratory with the fine walnut media. I had nickel 7-08s that had turned a dull gray. When I processed the old way they were bright, shiny and a lot slicker. I didn't realize how much slicker until I had dropped part of a handful repeatedly (slow learner). I think some combination of so many time one way and then the other many be my optimum solution.

[will52100]

One thing I've noticed about liquid tumbling with the SS media is that while they come out like polished gold, they tarnish a bit quicker and easier than the vibratory tumbler. I like the way they clean the inside of the case and primer pocket, might try liquid tumbling, dry, and an hour or two in the vibratory tumbler. I've wet tumbled some nickel pistol cases and they come out bright and shinny, what are you using for soap? I'm using a squirt of Dawn, a tea spoon or two of Lemishine, every once in a while a tea spoon or so of dishwasher liquid. After 3-4 hours even badly tarnished cases come out looking like they were polished on a buffer. Was wondering if maybe your getting an etch or something from a chemical your using?

[will52100]

Just had a thought, are you using city water with chlorine in it? A buddy of mine couldn't figure out why he was getting rust in his muzzle loader when cleaning it with water, turns out a high level of chlorine in the water was the culprit. If it's chlorine, just fill a bucket and wait a day or two, it'll evaporate. If it's the newer chloramine then that won't work and it'll most likely need to be filtered out. Another friend of mine was having issues with his tumbler getting black crud from the liner on his brass, turned out it was high levels of chlorine in the water supply and leaving a 5 gallon bucket out for a couple of days and using rain water solved his problem.

As an aside, the pics you posted, were they taken after firing or after tumbling? Reason I ask is my brass comes out a lot shinier and smoother after tumbling.

[fast ronnie]

Is there any chance there may be a small amount of lube on the head end of the case where there may be some movement toward the bolt face while the neck end is locked solid with the chamber walls as it supposed to be? Any kind of lube in a chamber puts a lot of stress on everything toward the rear. Was this a reduced load, or a full power load? I have found range pick-up in 30-06 with the same marks, but no idea who shot them. I would guess the ones I found were factory because nobody I know that reloads would leave 06 on the ground. If I remember correctly, those were military brass. Don't know if that would make a difference either.

[Bama]

Will, I use a shot of Dawn and a little citric acid to passivate brass. I am on city water but they don't put very much chlorine or at least it pretty well used up by time it gets here. Got to thinking on wording on last post about the .001 set back on full length from fired length. Brass rarely gets full length resized after first prep with Mil brass. I normally neck size only. I rarely have to re-trim to length which is one of reasons cracks don't make sense. I will check with a friend who is a metallurgical eng and see what he says on chlorine. Brass in picture was older because I had to dig through scrap bucket to get some that showed on outside to take picture. I catch most by sharp bent wire and checking on inside. The nickle 7-08 had been cleaned 6 or 7 times. I have been working up relative light loads using red dot and cast. Failures showed up with 5744 and heavy loads.
Ronnie, Up until I got worried about over gripping the chamber walls no lube got anywhere near after tumbling. They would be totally clean inside and out. I even run dry patches to insure no oil in chamber. I know what you mean on range brass but most I have seen split were old foreign millitary.

[scdw43]

Walmart has citric acid in the canning section, cheap.

[RPRNY]

Walmart has citric acid in the canning section, cheap.

Good advice. Never thought of that. Kind of a "d'uh" moment now that you point it out. Thanks for that

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[albe1234]

I purchased some 9mm used brass from an Amazon vendor. It is a dark tan to bronze color. Vendor claims they were cleaned with "limeshine". I tried some citric acid/vinegar cleaning. No change. I put some in my tumbler with crushed walnut and car polish. No change (except shinier) after 3 hours. What really concerns me is that all primers appear to be a copper or bronze color. When I knock them out, some are bright silver color on the sides and the bronze on the exposed side. I have 1000 of these cases......all the same bronze color. All my other 9mm brass are the "yellow" color. Would you guys have any concerns in reloading these? The vendor claims they are O.K. to use.
Please advise.
Thanks
Al