Citric acid brass cleaner

[rugerglocker]

Just wondering, if the solution turn blue/green aren't you leaching copper from the cases? And if you are isn't that bad?

[Chicken Thief]

Actually when left to long in an acid solution the brass will turn "red"/rose because of tin depletion. The difference of elements electric value (think zink anodes on iron ships) will cause depeltion/erosion of one metal before the other.

And a chemic reaction will douple it's pace = react in half the time when the temperature of the solution is raised 10degC~18degF.

So what takes 12 hours at 0degC~32degF will take 42 seconds at 100degC~212degF

So temp has a lot to say when tumbling/cleaning brass in an acidic solution!

In essence what takes 15min in summer might take 2-3hours (or more) in winter.

[mold maker]

Just wondering, if the solution turn blue/green aren't you leaching copper from the cases? And if you are isn't that bad?

The first solution I used many times and put it away for the summer. When I got it out in the fall it had turned blue green.
I'm not sure what causes the color change since it happened over time with no brass in it. I think that if it were copper in the solution, it would have changed during use, before storage.

[Molly]

The first solution I used many times and put it away for the summer. When I got it out in the fall it had turned blue green.
I'm not sure what causes the color change since it happened over time with no brass in it. I think that if it were copper in the solution, it would have changed during use, before storage.

Ahh, you're not consisdering the RATE of reaction, and the number of reaction steps that the solution may have to go through to reach equilibrium. While I don't know the exact mechanics of this reaction, I wouldn't be quite so fast to assume that brass / copper isn't a part of it. In fact, I'd assume that the green coloration was PROOF that it was a copper based reaction. Just consider the green goop that forms around copper fittings on a toilet when copper is reacted with Uric acid. It doesn't happen fast, but it is sure to happen unless the toilet is kept mighty clean.

Copper / brass oxidation actualy goes through multiple steps, as a little thought will let you realize. Oxidizing surfaces go slowly from a bright cleanly polish through a series of increasingly dull and more 'coppery' appearances to finally end up quite black. Think of the pennies in your pocket. Some are bright, some are dull, and some are black, or nearly so. That's for copper oxides. Copper salts (reaction of acid and copper) are almost always green at equilibrium, if not always so.

[rugerglocker]

Actually when left to long in an acid solution the brass will turn "red"/rose because of tin depletion.

As others explained your "tin" (zinc actually) has already been lost through corrosion in the air/dirt/water/etc. and now there is more copper showing as a result of the corrosion being cleaned away.

What concerns me is the presence of blue/green in solution, which to me means that Copper ions are present. If there are Copper ions, then where did they come from? I will have to hypothesize that they came from the brass, and to me this seems like a bad thing if your brass is giving off much copper (or zinc for that matter.) I suppose corrosion could affect the Cu and Zn both and cause them both to be lost and become part of the acid solution. I can't remember enough chemistry to get an easy visual indicator of Zn in solution.

It seems like you should not be getting any blue/green coloring to the solution if you are cleaning brass that is relatively corrosion free.

Hope I didn't sound like too much of a smart @$$, I don't mean it to be that way.

Maybe this should be split off into another thread since this one is so huge and this is somewhat of a side topic.

[ghh3rd]

This thread is one of those golden nuggets that the internet makes possible. I got hold of some citric acid powder and am ready to dump 1000 .38 cases that I got in trade for some 9's into a 5 gal bucket of the solution.

Randy

[ghh3rd]

Cleaned about 1300 .38 cases in the hot citric acid bath for about 10 minutes in a 5 gal plastic bucket with a snap on lid and rubber gasket. Rolled it around for a few minutes to really get the solution moving.

I was surprised at how nice the inside of the cases look. I finished them in the tumbler and even almost all of the primer pockets were clean too.

Randy

[Wilsknife]

Tried a quart of vinegar and a cup of lemon juice(cold), straight up, for about 10 minutes. Rinsed in cold water for two minutes. Let them dry in the sun for 30 minutes(While I cast boolits), then 4 hours in the vibrating tumbler, They came out looking brand new shiny

[leadman]

Could the blue color that forms over time be bacteria or mold? I remember seeing this color and many others in Yellowstone and those are said to be bacteria IIRC.

I cleaned some 43 Mauser cases tonight that are from 1886 and 1887. Made the mistake of using an old coffee can. The cases on the bottom had started to turn black but this pretty much polished in the tumbler.

Think we have an old ceramic pot out of a crock pot that I may be able to use.

I was thinking of going the stainless steel pin route but I think this method will work just fine for me.

[lukewmtdew]

Will the citric acid work on live ammunition? U kno the one u left on the bench that's getting the green scale crud etc

[DLCTEX]

Since the solution is heated and liquid I would expect it to ruin the powder, if not also the primer. Turn it in a Lee case trimmer holder and use OOOO steel wool to polish it. If it's just one. just polish it by hand, or if it's really cruddy toss it as the case may be weakened.

[nanuk]

The great thing about citric acid is, that it is safe to dispose of, just as you would soda pop.

I filter soda Pop through my kidneys. I don't think I'd do that with the crud in my pail after soaking my brass in the citric acid solution!

[mold maker]

I wouldn't think ingesting the heavy metal oxides, removed from your brass, to be very healthy either, but no one suggested drinking it. Just that pouring it down the drain or on the ground is environmentalyl as safe as soda pop. It's the same thing, without the fruit flavoring or color. Citric acid is also used in many household cleaners. An example is Lemishine which is often used as a citric acid source.

[mauser1959]

. Copper salts (reaction of acid and copper) are almost always green at equilibrium, if not always so.

Copper in oxidation can be either green or blue , consider the case of turquoise or of Malachite , both represent oxidation states of copper , which is visible in s
stone. For almost every oxidation state of a metal , there is a stone that shows that state ( probably every oxidation state) .



Actually the example of Malachite and Azurite would have been a better example , both states of oxidation are often seen in contact with each other in the same stone .

[trapper9260]

I just got some Citric Acid at a store here and the place they get has a web site .Here is it for those that can maybe liek to have it .Frontier Box 299 Norway,IA 52318 website is www.frontiercoop.com . I got what i have is from a health food store and there suppiler is this one . hope it will help some one here. I also want to thank for bring up about to use this and how to use it . Thank you all for explaining the use of it and how to use it . I just need to get the rest of the things I need

[Longwood]

My most recent test.
80 each, deprimed, 30-30- brass, fired last week.
I have a Harbor Freight sonic cleaner that I add water, a good degreaser and one paper tube of the lemonade mix from Walmart.
Four or five 480 second cycles in it, then, after draining and rinsing, about an hour in a small Lyman vibrator with walnut shells, 1/16" and 1/8" ceramic beads (maybe a pound) and about half of a 6000 count container of BB's, along with a little Nu-finish and Brasso for polish.
Done, way shinier that new. Spotless, shiny primer pockets.
Much faster than anything I have tried to date.

[Molly]

My most recent test.
80 each, deprimed, 30-30- brass, fired last week.
I have a Harbor Freight sonic cleaner that I add water, a good degreaser and one paper tube of the lemonade mix from Walmart.
Four or five 480 second cycles in it, then, after draining and rinsing, about an hour in a small Lyman vibrator with walnut shells, 1/16" and 1/8" ceramic beads (maybe a pound) and about half of a 6000 count container of BB's, along with a little Nu-finish and Brasso for polish.
Done, way shinier that new. Spotless, shiny primer pockets.
Much faster than anything I have tried to date.

Hi Longwood,

Just a word to the wise: I don't know about its current formulation, but I do know that Brasso used to have a good bit of ammonia in it. The ammonia was there because it attacks between the brass crystals to weaken the metal bonds and make it easier to buff to a shine.

That's great for brass buttons where strength isn't much of an issue. It's not so great for brass that you're trusting to hold 40,000 or 50,000 PSI a few inches from your face. Strength is most definitely an issue in cartridge brass.

Take a sniff at the top of the Brasso can. If you smell ammonia, I _strongly_ recommend that you change your polishing procedure. I also recommend that you do not use the cases that were subjected to ammonia. You MIGHT get away with it, but if you don't, the few pennies for the cost of a case is going to look like mighty cheap insurance.

[mauser1959]

You can buy 98% citric acid at wal mart in the canning supplies. It is Ball citric acid , 98% + 2% SiO2 , about 4 dollars for 7.5 ozs. It is used to acidify tomatoes , when canning . I think that the price is to high , but a person will not need much ... so over the long haul probably not to bad.

[mauser1959]

WOW , I have used many acids at my disposal to clean brass , HCl , H2SO4 , acetic , and this is by far and away the best thing that I have tried . I used two tbs , per quart of boiling water , and in less than 30 seconds , some of the nastiest brass that I had came out either sparkling clean or slightly pink . This tech is the best .

[Lee]

Ultrasonic cleaners;
Most if not all have a Stainless basin
Do not let other metals get in touch with it. Somebody is going to corrode, and you don't want it to be the SS basin.
I use water in the basin, and set the parts to be cleaned in a cut down plastic pop bottle filled to about the same level with my actual cleaning solution.
The ultrasonics are little bothered by passing thru the plastic, and the SS is NOT bothered by the neutral water .... Just sayin' ..... Lee