Citric acid brass cleaner

[NSP64]

After going back and rereading posts I found some Lemi shine in the Dish washer detergent aisle At walmart.$3.50. Poured some in a tuperware bowl and added water. Works great. I bought some pantyhose at the same place for $0.38. Then it dawned on me. Why not dip the swagged .223 bullets I got from some people on the site. ( discolored from annealing) They look almost like High end bullets now!!
I nuke it in the microwave for 30 sec to heat up. then place whatever I want cleaned in there. Pull the pantyhose out after 5min & rinse. then dump on towel to dry. Cover with lid when done to save for the next time.
Once I knew where to look, I see it was everywhere right under my nose.

[sagacious]

Then it dawned on me. Why not dip the swagged .223 bullets I got from some people on the site. ( discolored from annealing) They look almost like High end bullets now!!

That's what I do. I run a citric wash on the fired 22lr 'jackets' after annealing. Shines 'em up right purty.

[pjh421]

Reloader06,
Much better indeed. Now I use the ultra-sonic cleaner and Lemi-shine. It just works faster and there's a thermal circuit on it too.

I had some brake rotors I wanted to clean up. They were pretty scaly and I had mixed results with the electrolytic de-ruster. It kind of spot cleans and takes forever. A 24 hour soak in citric acid cleaned them thoroughly, inside and out. My neighbor gave me a very rusty bench vise that had been in his storage shed for decades. It soaked in Lemi-shine for a day and I hosed it off. After drying with compressed air it got a coat of primer and then some red top coat. It looks new!

Paul

[cbrick]

A while back I picked up an RCBS used mold on the cheap cause it was a bit rusted up. The cavities looked good though so I bought it and have been pondering on how best to clean it up.

I had already scrubbed it with denatured alcohol and bronze brush, mineral spirits and brush but once dry it was still rusty. Next I tried Kroil and that did nothing for it, Kroil is not a rust remover.

Was considering naval jelly on the outside when I discovered this thread. I ordered citric acid online for $4.00 a pound and mixed up some with hot water and poured it into the Hornady Sonic Cleaner, in went the mold. Amazing, the solution was clear but as soon as I turned on the machine the rust lifted off the mold and hovered like a cloud. One 480 second cycle (8 minutes) and I rinsed it well in alcohol & blew it off with compressed air.

No rust, not a speck anywhere. It left a bit of an odd color where the rust was but the rust was gone. The cavities were bright & shiny, in fact it almost looked like an aluminum mold inside the cavities.

For cleaning brass in the sonic cleaner I had ordered the Hornady cleaner solution with the machine and was less than impressed, it did work, kinda, but at $23.00 a quart I'll be buying no more of that. The powdered citric acid worked far better, far faster and much, much cheaper.

Thanks a ton for this thread sag, extremely useful info.

Rick

[kbstenberg]

Another use for Limashine, Dishwashers. According to the package that is the main purpose of limashine. The wife used the first 2 packs before i could say anything.
Kevin

[WallyM3]

Now that's cold!

[sagacious]

Rick,
Fantastic! Very glad to hear of your success. Congrats on breathing some life back into an old mold. I get a similar 'white haze' in the areas on stainless steel that previously had discoloration from annealing.

Brass cleaner, rust remover, mold restorer, inexpensive and effective-- it's almost too good to be true!

[sagacious]

My neighbor gave me a very rusty bench vise that had been in his storage shed for decades. It soaked in Lemi-shine for a day and I hosed it off. After drying with compressed air it got a coat of primer and then some red top coat. It looks new!

Paul

Nice work on the rotors and vice. I reckon your neighbor would scarcely believe it's the same old bench vice!

[Turk]

Greetings group: I got some pool chemicals today at the waste disposal place. Iv'e got some Sodium hydrogen carbonate,some sodium carbonate, and some sodium bisulfate. Would any of these work? or what else could I use them for? TIA---Turk

[zardoz]

I have some powdered citric acid purchased from the canning section of a local grocery.

For the purposes of cleaning brass, in a boiling hot solution, would a stainless steel pot be safe to use?

[felix]

Yes, sodium bi-sulfate should work. If too slowly, add heat. ALWAYS keep the cases moving slowly when in the solution. Rinse with plain water. Distilled water would be best. ... felix

Do NOT use the carbonates or bi-carbonates, sodium or otherwise. They could oxidize the cases to blackish. ... felix

[felix]

Yes, stainless cooking steel should be fine indeed. ... felix

[sagacious]

Iv'e got some Sodium hydrogen carbonate,some sodium carbonate, and some sodium bisulfate. Would any of these work?
TIA---Turk

Turk,
The sodium bisulfate might work to clean brass-- but you're on your own as far as what the actual results will be. Don't commit any large or important batches of brass until you know for sure what you'll get, or it if could affect the brass negatively.

If one wanted to approximate the pH of the citric solution, one might try mixing about one 1/2oz of NaHSO4 per liter of hot water (a liter and a quart are close enough for our purposes). Myself, I'd start with half that amount per liter and see how it goes with a small batch of brass. Soak, rinse, let dry. Observe the brass for 5 days to see if it undergoes any color changes that might indicate the presence of an acidic residue. Hope it works out-- I would be very cautious when committing brass to this NaHSO4 solution. Citric acid is inexpensive, and not only cleans but protects brass against corrosion.

I have tried sodium carbonates on brass. The sodium carbonates (Na2CO3) in strong solutions can leach copper from brass to form copper carbonates (CuCO3). This is not good, as it invisbly weakens the brass. The brass will not shine up, usually does not change color, and the solution does not remove powder fouling. The solution eventually turns blue, and what's happening is essentially that the copper is slowly being removed from the brass and turned into dissolved tarnish. This is the exact opposite of what we want to happen!

Use eye protection when mixing/working with those chemicals. Good luck.

[sagacious]

I have some powdered citric acid purchased from the canning section of a local grocery.

For the purposes of cleaning brass, in a boiling hot solution, would a stainless steel pot be safe to use?

Zardoz,
Unfortunately, a stainless pot would be neither "safe" nor desirable. Plastic or glass is much better.

At boiling hot temps, citric acid can heavily etch stainless steel. If the finish of the ss pot is no concern, one is still reducing the effectiveness of the solution, as the strength of the solution is divided between the brass and the ss, and weakened by the dissolved iron citrate. Since citric has a high affinity for iron, you can expect diminished cleaning action on brass, and on any of the brass that's in direct physical contact with the ss pot.

Here's another rub: The citric acid solution will dissolve any copper compounds that are tarnish and no longer contribute to to the strength of the brass. That's OK, but this dissolved copper will then plate right onto the stainless steel. In the working solution, this copper transfers into and out of the solution with as new batches of brass are soaked. This diminishes the cleaning potential.

I wasn't sure when/if this would come up, but this is probably a good time. A citric solution used on iron should not be used for cleaning copper, or vice-versa. Keep citric-for-iron and citric-for-brass solutions separate.

If you want to try an experiment, use a citric solution on brass until it turns blue. Then dip a perfectly clean piece of carbon steel into the solution-- bam! it'll plate copper on there instantly. It will do this at room temp for carbon steel, and at higher temps for stainless. Can be useful if you want to copper-plate something, but can make a real mess if you don't.

You're better off with a plastic pail, or a Pyrex glass bowl, or you could use a non-stick coated aluminum pot to heat the solution. You could use an enamel-coated pot, but the finish might (possibly) eventually be etched by the solution-- this will only affect the enamel coating, and not the brass.

Hope this helps, good luck.

[zardoz]

Thanks Sagacious. I was wondering about that. Can just never tell about those covalent electrons, similar electronegativities, and what not...

I just now remembered there was a new 12 cup pyrex spare coffee carafe, still in the original box in storage. I only use the 4 cup now, and the original 12 cup coffee maker is long gone. That sounds like the ticket here. Now if I can just remember where I hid it.

Thanks again for the info.

[Gelandangan]

If you want to try an experiment, use a citric solution on brass until it turns blue. Then dip a perfectly clean piece of carbon steel into the solution-- bam! it'll plate copper on there instantly. It will do this at room temp for carbon steel, and at higher temps for stainless. Can be useful if you want to copper-plate something, but can make a real mess if you don't.

THANKS!!!!

I have been using Blackfast instant room temperature blacking compound for carbon steel for years.
I learned that they are copper compound, but I never found out what it is.

Now, I would try the citric acid solution and see if this would work.

[pjh421]

Soaking rusted cadmium-coated fasteners in Lemi Shine turns them black. Probably liberates the Cd and makes hazmat. I won't do that any more.

Paul

[cbrick]

I wasn't sure when/if this would come up, but this is probably a good time. A citric solution used on iron should not be used for cleaning copper, or vice-versa. Keep citric-for-iron and citric-for-brass solutions separate.

If you want to try an experiment, use a citric solution on brass until it turns blue. Then dip a perfectly clean piece of carbon steel into the solution-- bam! it'll plate copper on there instantly. It will do this at room temp for carbon steel, and at higher temps for stainless. Can be useful if you want to copper-plate something, but can make a real mess if you don't.

Highly confused now.

Ok, I did an experiment with the powdered citric acid but first, the tub in the Hornady Sonic Cleaner is stainless steel, inside of that fits a plastic screen tub. The instructions say to never place brass directly on the stainless steel, always use the plastic tub inside the stainless tub.

The experiment, the rusty mold I cleaned up (my last post in this thread) was in the same solution as I had used for some 308 brass. Today I got 3 brand new molds from Midway, all 30 cal, 1 RCBS and 2 Lyman. I had such good luck cleaning up the rusty mold the new and oily RCBS went into the solution (now cold) and I ran it for one 480 second cycle. Removed it and rinsed it in denatured alcohol to remove any trace of citric acid and dried with compressed air. Not a trace of oil left on it or copper for that matter. I pre-heated it and it started dropping perfect boolits right from the get go. This is a great mold, RCBS has been putting out excellent molds lately.

Next one of the Lyman's went in the same solution and then the alcohol. Pre-heated it also was dropping perfectly filled out boolits with the first pour. No oil, no wrinkles. That's about 50 rounds of 308 brass and three molds in the same solution which by now was starting to get dark so I dumped it.

All three molds took on a bit of an odd coloring but nothing that looks anything like copper plating, more of a minor case hardening effect.

I have one new (and oily) Lyman left which I will do with clean solution as another experiment. If having had the brass in the first solution caused the discoloring I'll know with this last mold. If either the citric acid or the brass in it caused any harm to the iron mold blocks I can't see it and they are casting perfectly dimensioned boolits that fall out of the mold. All of the molds by the way were in the plastic tub and not directly on the stainless.

If down the road I find that citric acid in way damages the iron molds I guess this will have been an expensive experiment. For right now all looks good, by far the easiest and fastest oily molds I've ever made totally oil free.

Rick

[sagacious]

Highly confused now.

Rick,
OK pard, let me see if I can sort this out. The citric won't damage the molds as you treated them for only 480 seconds. What the citric acid does, you can see with your eyes. There's no 'hidden damage' that's only visible later. That's one of the great things about citric.

Looks like Hornady's instructions match mine almost exactly, and I haven't read their litertature on their sonic cleaner. So, all clear there.

Your solution was barely used (50 cases and a few molds). As I wrote above, if you continue to use it with brass until the solution turns blue..... and you put steel into the solution..... it will copperplate the steel instantly.

I recommend that folks keep the citric/copper and citric/iron solutions separate, because eventually someone will put their fancy steel mold or rusty heirloom micrometer into a vat of dirty blue citric acid and it'll make a copperplated mess of it, and they'll post something almong the lines of, "$%@&! Sagacious, why didn't you tell me!!" So, everyone has been warned. Citric acid is inexpensive, so keep the solutions separate if you reuse your solution for a while.

The 'case-hardening color' on your mold may not be from copper, as your solution didn't have much dissolved copper. The surfaces may now be raw naked steel in some areas, so take care to prevent rusting if you live in a humid area.

I hope this will dispel any lingering confusion. Regards, and good shooting.

[Turk]

What would you have with 1/2 gallon water + 1/2 gallon vinegar + 2 oz citric acid powder +two drops dish soap. would that work good? TIA--Turk