Why NOT quench?

[armyrat1970]

I suspect the antimony isn't the problem there. Size and lube, more likely.

I agree on some points. He did say arsenic and not antimony. And some alloys do contain arsenic, which adds to hardness. It would be better if he specified what alloy he is using, along with bore size and boolit diameter
I do agree that the hardness isn't the problem. More likely boolit fit and possibly his lubing techniques. Many forget lubing plays a roll also in reducing leading.
For instance, you lube than size, than relube before loading the boolit into the charged case. How many forget to relube after sizing, or don't think it is needed?
Harder boolits, driven at the same velocity and pressure as a softer boolit, with poor bullet fit to groove, will give more leading. The softer boolit will tend to fill the grooves better, and the harder boolit, will tend to just skim over the lands and be shaved. JMO.

[44man]

I agree with Bass and a few others. It is always a sticky question to solve.
But he forgets, there are degrees of leading. That which shoots out with each shot, that which never builds up and that which will fill the grooves solid.
I don't agree with a bunch of shots needed after cleaning either, it only takes ONE shot if everything is correct. Many of the groups I have posted were shot starting with a CLEAN bore. I only "season" frying pans! You can't make a non stick barrel by shooting 50 rounds.
If water dropped and left to age a while, the boolit should harden and GROW in diameter faster then air cooled. But this is of little use if the mold drops boolits too small to start with and they won't grow enough to fit.
I want the bore to size my boolits, not the pressure. Forcing a boolit larger with pressure only solves the leading problem, nothing else.
Ever try to put the cork back in a wine bottle? Once in, it does not leak. Far better then putting in a smaller cork and beating on it.
Before I would make boolits softer to expand to obturate the bore I would buy a better mold that casts a larger one or fix the mold I have. Then you can shoot both hard and softer down to the point the boolit skids or slumps. Then you ruin it all anyway.
Bret always says it correct, fit is king FIRST. That lets you work alloys all over the place up to the hardest you can cast without breaking from being brittle.
Going softer and softer even with the proper fit will start with fliers appearing and then groups will just blow apart to patterns.
Using a soft, under size boolit will start with patterns.
I fully understand that some just want the gun to shoot and not lead. Close range, steel plate shooting, etc, where accuracy is not needed. That is where softer is OK. I can only assure you that if done wrong, the little close range gun will lead like crazy too.

[Fugowii]

I have a ton of water quenched boolits that I cast recently and found they lead my barrels just as
'good' as the softer ones. I need to get the fit right and try out both ways. I have a .430-.4305
bore and am sizing to .430. Gee, I wonder why I'm getting leading?

[44man]

I have a ton of water quenched boolits that I cast recently and found they lead my barrels just as
'good' as the softer ones. I need to get the fit right and try out both ways. I have a .430-.4305
bore and am sizing to .430. Gee, I wonder why I'm getting leading?

Well, I shoot a lot of .430" boolits from a .430" groove with no leading but that .0005" over you find might not be good. A .431" to .432" would be better.
But your alloy could be the cause too and is why I don't like to go by BHN because too many alloys will read the same. If your antimony is not bound in the alloy with enough tin, antimony can move to the surface when cooling and rub off. If there is not a trace of arsenic, the lead will not harden as much and will soften faster with age. I don't profess to know that much about alloys but there are more reasons for leading not thought of because we only have Brinnel to go by.
Look at steel. You can have a knife at 58 Rockwell that never seems to get dull but a stainless blade will just not hold an edge at the same hardness.
A few small strands of lead on the first patch is nothing to worry about and as Bass said, it is hard to prevent all of it although I sometimes clean and find none at all. The next time will have some loose stuff that comes out.
You must use a good jag and never a slotted rod end, they will not remove anything but dirt and carbon.
Next is the lube, the wrong lube can ruin accuracy and also lead the bore. I use Felix and Carnauba Red. LBT soft is good. Hard lube or LLA will not shoot for me at all. In fact I don't like any Alox at all. Some Alox lubes are OK but I attribute it to the other ingredients masking the junk. The flash point is too low and if you shoot smoke, find something else.
I really like Felix lube because I can rub it into the grooves with my fingers and run the boolit through an oversize die to remove excess. I don't size unless I have to. It also cuts groups in half from Alox lubes.
I learned years ago that 50 rounds loaded right is better then boxes and boxes of poor shooting stuff.
I have gotten away from saying "hard" cast because most of my boolits are no harder then someone else uses but they are "tougher." Mine are nowhere near the hard commercial stuff.
I got some free samples from Laser Cast once and they leaded the bore and shot very badly. First, they are the wrong size for all guns.

[Lavid2002]

I am still confused about why people lube twice. I will be pan-lubing. Will I have to pan lube-resize, then pan lube AGAIN? Why is that necessary? Why cant I Just pan lube, size, then forget about it. Or better yet...why do I need to lube prior to sizing? Why cant I size then lube then blast away?

Thanks
-Dave

[AZ-Stew]

I use a lubricator/sizer, so I only have to run the boolits through once to both lube and size, with one exception. The rifle boolits I heat treat are sized only, then heat treated and quenched. Later I'll run them through the sizer using a die .001 larger than the original sizer to add the lube.

To expand on a previous post you made, ask your gunsmith how a T/C Maxi bullet or other unpatched muzzle loader bullet of pure lead can be driven over 1,200 fps with no discernable leading.

Regards,

Stew

[Lavid2002]

How about for me though? Can I cast, size, lube, then shoot? I dont see why the first lube is necessary... : /

[Blammer]

ever tried getting a boolit through a sizer without any lube?

[Lavid2002]

Never even sized before : D

Is it really that hard?


If so, why do I need to RE lube? Doesn't a fair amount stay in the lube groove?

[Blammer]

without some type of lube it will be very difficult.

can't help with the relubing bit, I only use my lyman 450 sizer/luber

[bohokii]

i run my bullets through the sizer unlubed

about every 10th one i rub a bullet on a candle so maybe that is using lube

but i just send through my lee tl design bullets just to true them up i like nice smooth sides for seating it also helps me pick out the undersize ones when i feel no resistance that was a bad one that slipped through primary inspection

[KYCaster]

I am still confused about why people lube twice. I will be pan-lubing. Will I have to pan lube-resize, then pan lube AGAIN? Why is that necessary? Why cant I Just pan lube, size, then forget about it. Or better yet...why do I need to lube prior to sizing? Why cant I size then lube then blast away?

Thanks
-Dave

Dave,
They're talking about "tumble lubing". A different process than your pan lubing.

If your boolits are the right diameter as they drop from the mold then sizing is unnecessary.

If you need to size then it may be difficult to do without some kind of lube on the boolits....or maybe not....you'll just have to try it and see for yourself. If you pan lube first then size, the results should be the same as you'll get with a lube/sizer; lube left in the lube grooves, none on the driving bands.

Some guys use spray on case sizing lube for the initial sizing before lubing. Those who tumble lube usually lube before sizing, then have to replace the lube that was wiped off by the sizing die.

Jerry

P.S....Don't ask me why tumble lube needs to be applied to the driving bands and other lubes don't. That's one of those "imponderables" that I'm not going to spend any time on since I don't tumble lube.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I water drop all my cast boolits. For the .45 ACP's after casting I dip them into a mix of DAWN dishwashing detergent and water for a lube and run them thru a Lee sizer.

After sizing I lube twice with JPW and LLA. One light coating and they are put on waxed paper for drying overnight. 2nd day another light coating and another drying on waxed paper.

Then they get a tumble in a plastic container with corn starch to keep them from messing up my dies and they store with out sticking together.

I have in the past run the .45 thru my Lubricizer and lubed with Carnuba REd but my groups are tighter with the LLA and JPW.

Examination of the completed boolits after lubing and such reveals that the LLA/JPW boolits are about .0005 bigger in dia than the one run thru the Lubricizer.

I went out and got a bigger lubricizer die and tried that and the boolits would not chamber 100% of the time. I guess I need to hone out the smaller dies a mite to equal the LLA/JPW diameter.

After all this experimenting I gotta go with Bret4207's ideas about FIT IS KING.
Who would have believed that a boolit just a smidge bigger in dia would shoot so much better than a smaller boolit?

I will say that the LLA/JPW method is more work than the SAECO lubricizer. A lot less work and a lot faster is the Lubricizer method however accuracy is what I want and I am willing to do the work to get it.

[HangFireW8]

Lavid2002 said "If it will help prevent the possibility of leading"

This is FALSE! Harder DOES NOT prevent the possibility of leading!!

That's what I said, but without so many exclamation points.

That's not what he said either, he said "IF it will HELP prevent".

-HF

[KYCaster]

Why NOT quench?

Ummmmm...........

1) I don't have to.

2) It adds several steps to the casting process that I consider unnecessary.

3) It adds a variable that's very difficult to control...(varying the time from cutting the sprue till the boolit hits the water will result in inconsistent hardness)

4) Since you can't see the boolits after they drop from the mold it's more difficult to recognize a problem when it occurs.

5) I don't have to. (Did I already say that?)

We had this same discussion a couple months ago and the consensus then was that It's just another tool. You can use it if you like or not if you don't like. My complaint at the time was that newbees were beginning to think that it is necessary and were being encouraged to do it regardless of the benefits.(or lack thereof)

Could I improve my boolits by water quenching? Maybe....I don't know....I haven't tried it. Eventually I'll explore that possibility, but I've gotten some pretty good results without it so it's not real high on my priority list.

Just don't try to tell me it's "easier" or "more convenient". Just say "I like to do it that way." That's the only excuse you need.

Jerry

[44man]

KY, it IS easier for me because I cast on my work bench in the garage between a grinder, vise and drill press. It is a pain with rags and moving boolits.
I use two molds at once most times and when the pot gets empty I either pour out the water or just reach in and grab out hand fulls to put on an old towel.
If anyone can tell the difference between one boolit and another from a few seconds difference in dump time, they must shoot one hole groups all the time.

[armyrat1970]

Never even sized before : D

Is it really that hard?


If so, why do I need to RE lube? Doesn't a fair amount stay in the lube groove?

Lavid. If you never size your boolits, there is no need to re-lube them. When sizing, at least with my Lee sizers, it does remove some lube and leaves bear alloy. It is best to re-lube after sizing.
Don't know about other lube/sizers. But after sizing I want some lube on my driving bands also.
I have been given some cast bullets that were not tumble lubed but only had the lube groove filled. This is fine as the lube will, or should, spread through the bore as the boolit is driven through. Tumble lubing does not fill the grooves as much. You only get a light coat over the whole boolit. Even on the nose which is not needed. Therefore, after sizing, you want to lube again to replace any of the lube that has been removed from the driving bands. Sizing will remove the lube from the driving bands.
The cast bullets I received had the grooves filled, but no lube on the bands. I tumble lubed them, then sized, then relubed. Haven't shot them yet, but I am thinking I will get no leading. If I do my part.

[Lavid2002]

I have since made my first cast, air dropping is incredibly easy. I thought boolits that hit each other would deform and it isnt the case. That being said I still cleared a spot for the new ones that were going to be dropped.

-Dave

[grouch]

Why not? Because some of my rifles shoot better with the same bullets air cooled - you have to try it.
Grouch