Revolver Bullets: Soft vs. Hard

[RobS]

Playing around with the two differences:
Revolver: Ruger Super Redhawk 454 Casull 7 ½” barrel open sights
Barrel groove diameter: .452
Barrel throat: .454
Cylinder throats: .455
Bullet: LBT LFN 280 grain Plain Base bullet
Powder: 12 grains of Herco
Velocity: 1,150 fps


I corrected my original post to better explain what I meanWe need to discuss this because I am confused by the measurements. What is the barrel throat where the rifling begins? Are you sure you did not mean the cylinder throats? What do you mean by cylinder throats, is that the chambers Yes, the chamber cylinder throats?
DO YOU HAVE A TAPERED GROOVE TO GROOVE OF .454" TO .452" AT THE MUZZLE?
No Ruger has a tapered bore Well this ruger does and it came to me used so there you go and I can not picture .455" throats either. Something here does not jive. You are right but it is as it is
Bore should be .443", groove .452" and throats .453" or a tad over. ( The throats are the exit end of the cylinder.) yes the throats are at the end of the cylinder and that is what I measured out with slugs as I slugged each chamber

Your first job is to give us proper dimensions of your gun, I can't make heads or tails from what you gave us.

These dimensions are correct.............and I too would question them if I was on your end reading it. Remember just because things don't look right does not mean it doesn't exist

[Bret4207]

But that is exactly what you wrote! You find water dropped WW boolits are good for anything up to the 2K range. You
I feel you just look for something to dispute even after you say it yourself.
I forgive you because I know we think exactly alike. Have a beer and chill out! Better yet, come over for a beer.

I neither need or want your forgiveness. No where did I say I, "...find water dropped WW boolits are good for anything up to the 2K range. " That is a lie. Go back and read post #4 in this thread verbatim and try not adding your twist to it.

[Harter66]

As if to add credibility , I too have a Bicentenial 45 Colts Ruger Blackhawk that nearly perfectly matches the specs given . I've shot hard cast commercial bullets of 255grs .453" that leaded badly at 900 fps but were fine under 750 fps. Now I shoot a big soft 265grn .455" LEE boolit from a mould that drops a .453/257grn WW boolit up to 1100fps with no leading at all. I tried Win and CCI primers Red Dot ,Blue Dot, Unique and H110 ,seating depths ,all the tricks with the .001over bore hard bullets and got lead. Fat and soft fixed it all and let's me go fast too.

[44man]

These dimensions are correct.............and I too would question them if I was on your end reading it. Remember just because things don't look right does not mean it doesn't exist

Could it be that the previous owner power lapped it like crazy?
I am not saying you are wrong but that it is not standard.
Sounds like you are well versed and doing things correct.
Just what did the other guy do to the gun? 200 years of shooting will not change things that much. I feel he screwed up and got rid of it.
The SRH is Ruger's flagship gun. I have owned and shot too many of them. Mine was good enough to shoot beer cans at 200 yards and came with a perfect trigger pull. I have shot other owners guns that shot tighter then mine.
You have found things that are specific to your gun and might not relate to other guns.

[44man]

I've never been a proponent of the harder alloys for general use, not because they can't or don't work but because plain ol' WW material is far, far more readily available and will work up to the 2K range in many cases. I simply can't afford to discard a gun that just needs some fitting, nor can I afford to buy special alloys. So I save my small supply of linotype for truly special purposes, same with my tin. If I can't do it with WW, water quenching and good fit it just may not get done!

Right here Bret! Your words exactly.

[454PB]

Thanks for sharing your test results, RobS.

To me, whatever works in YOUR guns is good.

I own the same gun you have, plus a F.A. 83, and a Taurus Raging Bull. As Lloyd stated earlier, any boolit over .452" will NOT chamber in ANY of these. The Taurus will take them if I really push hard, but if they aren't fired, the loaded rounds are tough to remove.

I had to pull a batch of loaded rounds a while back, and I measured the pulled boolits.....all were still .452", and had been cast from a slightly linotype enriched mixture of WW alloy, about 14 BHN. You could actually see the lube grooves within the loaded rounds, they fit that tightly in the case.

I am a proponent of using boolits that are .001" to .002" over groove diameter, but sometimes it is not possible.

[MtGun44]

I get zero leading in .357 mag or .44 mag with .001 or .002 over throat diameter with
appropriate (normal) throat and groove diameters and normal S&W and Ruger smooth
barrels and air cooled wheel wts. I have tried water dropping and got no discernible
improvement for extra hassle, so I quit. I am talking about full power loads too, like
16.3 H110 in .357 and 21.0 2400 in .44 mag. These are my 'go to' loads for full magnum
power and top accy. Not that there aren't other good loads, just that these always
seem to work, even with very different boolits, and they are definitely where I start
nowdays, and usually there is no need to look farther.

Back to something I first saw Bret say - but that I have independently arrived at,
Fit is king. Bret has it dead right as far as I am concerned.

Rob - thanks for the report. I, too wonder if getting a bigger expander would have been
a better route - altho at the expense of more working of the brass and perhaps shorter
brass life. However, you had the die on hand and I'm not sure how easy it would be
to get a larger expander, esp in a reasonable time.

Your basic results - that AC WWts .001-.002 over cyl throat diam will be accurate and will
not lead is another example of what I beleive to be a KEY truth for revolver loaders.

Not that there may not be other reasons to use hard boolits, but my point is that for easy
loading and use of ordinary alloys with no special work, this is A reliable answer, certainly
NOT the only answer, but an easy, relaible and dependable method to recommend to a newbie
for his first hot loads with the magnum revolvers and boolits.

Bill

[Wayne Smith]

Rob, Lyman M type expanders are made and sold by CH4D. Check them out. They will make them to your dimensions.

[RobS]

Could it be that the previous owner power lapped it like crazy? Yes that is a possibility, I can't say for sure though as I have lost his contact info and if he did then I'm sure he wouldn't admit it.
I am not saying you are wrong but that it is not standard. Yes you are definately right........not standard but it can happen
Sounds like you are well versed and doing things correct.
Just what did the other guy do to the gun? 200 years of shooting will not change things that much. I feel he screwed up and got rid of it could be sounds possible.
The SRH is Ruger's flagship gun. I have owned and shot too many of them. Mine was good enough to shoot beer cans at 200 yards and came with a perfect trigger pull. I have shot other owners guns that shot tighter then mine.
You have found things that are specific to your gun and might not relate to other guns. that is possible, but it is all the same bucket of bolts in general.

Providing the chamber cylinder thoats are larger than the groove diameter of the barrel then we are working in the same direction. Bullet fit is what I am trying to bring to light here regarding soft or hard bullets and what they undergo during the seating process. I have seen a bullet that is perfectly fit for my cylinder throats swaged down upon seating. At one time I didn't know the bullet was being swaged down all I knew was they leaded the barrel and for that I started water quenching bullets and had the success you speak of. Those harder bullets do not swage down at all upon seating and there comes in to play the aspect of bullet fit as those bullet retained their original sized diameter. Should a soft bullet be used then a person needs to know what their bullet is doing once it is seated. Either an expander die which you mentioned is an option as it will open up the brass so the bullet isn't swaged down or a fatter bullet can be used in order to compensate for inevitable swage. I believe that using a larger bullet is better as case tension will be greater than using an expander.

Now onto the powder selection: Yes all of you who use slower powders you are correct and justified in using them. I agree 100% that a slower powder is gentler on the bullet vs using a faster powder which forcefully gives a bullet a good a$$ kicking to start with vs a slow powder and the gentle push which then continues to accelerate down the rest of the length of the barrel. If you all haven't figured out yet, I do not have a ton of cash just flying around so if I can achieve an accurate 1150 fps with 12 grains of Herco vs a very similar result using twice as many grains of a slower powder, I will go the economic route and load twice as many rounds.

[RobS]

Rob, Lyman M type expanders are made and sold by CH4D. Check them out. They will make them to your dimensions.

Thanks Wayne and this is good info for those who may not choose to go with a larger bullet approach. I believe I will, since I have already started it this way, size larger bullets and let the case swage them down to the needed diameter. I feel this is better as there will be greater case tension.

[RobS]

Thanks for sharing your test results, RobS.

To me, whatever works in YOUR guns is good. HERE, HERE

I own the same gun you have, plus a F.A. 83, and a Taurus Raging Bull. As Lloyd stated earlier, any boolit over .452" will NOT chamber in ANY of these. The Taurus will take them if I really push hard, but if they aren't fired, the loaded rounds are tough to remove.

I had to pull a batch of loaded rounds a while back, and I measured the pulled boolits.....all were still .452", and had been cast from a slightly linotype enriched mixture of WW alloy, about 14 BHN. You could actually see the lube grooves within the loaded rounds, they fit that tightly in the case. I have been playing with this BHN and the whole swage down process on bullets upon seating and have found that with my case sizing die I am able to have no change in diameter of a bullets base if I stay above 13 to 13.5 BHN. Others mileage may vary though as case sizing dies are all different and case thickness is different and so on and so forth; the only way to know is to seat, crimp, pull and measure the bullet

I am a proponent of using boolits that are .001" to .002" over groove diameter, but sometimes it is not possible.

Reality yes, you can't cram a square peg into a round hole

[Edubya]

"the only way to know is to seat, crimp, pull and measure the bullet"

I'd like to suggest one more thought into your endeavor: Leave off the crimp, or at least do a minimum crimp. The crimp will shave off some of the soft lead when removing the boolit from the brass. This will give you an erroneous reading. Of course you could cut the brass to remove the boolit, it take a very steady hand to keep from altering the boolit.

EW

[Lloyd Smale]

just because some ppc shooters use swadged wadcutters isnt any kind of praise for them. I shoot ppc and id guess that 75 percent of the guns that are used have never even seen a load workup and i know of many that havent even been sighted in on a bench. A couple years ago i got into the heads of two of the guys i shoot with that they needed to do some load work. Funny thing is there both handloaders but only loaded cheap bulk bullets and whatever powder they could find that worked. there scores went up from mid 80s to mid 90s just by actually finding a bullet that shot well in there guns. How competitors think they can reliably hit a 2 inch x ring with a a gun that shoots 3 inch groups is beyond me. Id about bet that most of the so called experts using swadged wadcutters either do it because they dont know any better or because there the cheapest bullet they can find. Ask John paul jones. he was a very prominent ppc shooter in his day on the west coast. he will preach to everyone that the only alloy for shooting ppc is linotype. He obviously had a better supply then ive found but he claimed nothing shot near as well. He was no dummy when it came to cast bullets. he was the west coast distributor star

[RobS]

I'd like to suggest one more thought into your endeavor: Leave off the crimp, or at least do a minimum crimp. The crimp will shave off some of the soft lead when removing the boolit from the brass. This will give you an erroneous reading. Of course you could cut the brass to remove the boolit, it take a very steady hand to keep from altering the boolit.

EW

Your statement is of consideration although my intent in this thread is to describe bullet fit of soft and hard bullets as it pertains to their diameter after reloading them or after they come back out of the case in which they were loaded in. Even if erroneous the bullet after it leave the brass is what I look at to determine if it is going to fit the cylinder throats that I am planning on shooting the bullet through. An average on a sample of bullets could give a person a degree of variance if diameters were vastly difference. Although I have not had a substantial variance on my readings between the several crimped bullets I pulled. The largest variance in my experimentation was .0005 or less with a crimped bullet. Now just 5 minutes before starting this reply I went and seated 3 bullets not crimped and they held the same variance as the crimped.

[Edubya]

Rob, I found a similar thing with my .44 and 9mm. This convinced me to try backing off the sizing die enough as to not size the full brass on once fired brass. The de-caper must be screwed in to do it's job but the sizing sleeve can be backed out to resize only the last quarter of the brass. This has eliminated a lot of the leading for me.

EW

[Bret4207]

I've never been a proponent of the harder alloys for general use, not because they can't or don't work but because plain ol' WW material is far, far more readily available and will work up to the 2K range in many cases. I simply can't afford to discard a gun that just needs some fitting, nor can I afford to buy special alloys. So I save my small supply of linotype for truly special purposes, same with my tin. If I can't do it with WW, water quenching and good fit it just may not get done!

Right here Bret! Your words exactly.

Yes, my words exactly, but that's not what you said. The words and meaning differ. In your rush to build your ego and massage your"legend" you twisted my words and meaning. I guess when you are a better man the Elmer, Skeeter, Munden, etc and every other handgunner who ever lived you can twist and lie as you choose.

Here's a fine example of your ego running amuck. I'd include your asinine claim that a guy wearing a vest wouldn't even feel the impact of a 9mm, but I don't know how to multiple quote, plus- you really aren't worth it.

Read these words and tell me this clown is worth listening to-

Originally Posted by 44man View Post
That is exactly what you want, a cast boolit as hard as a jacketed so it takes the rifling. No, you will never convince me that soft lead is better. Elmer shot good groups, never excellent or super. Sorry, I was a follower of Elmer but found better. He was ecstatic with 1" at 25 yards. With all the group pictures I have posted, not a single person has EVER shown better with soft boolits.
All the other people in the world do not know what a revolver can really do and "go bang" with a hole somewhere in the paper is great for them. There is not a single person here that has shot 1" or less at 100 yards with a revolver except by accident. An accident is just that too. No, you have to show me as I have shown. My revolvers will out shoot many rifles at 100 yards or 500 meters for that matter.
There is ZERO need for expansion in the .44, .45, .475 and .500 because the velocity is correct. Now the 45-70 is too fast and NEEDS expansion for deer but that is where accuracy suffers with softer boolits. I go from 5 shots in 5/16" with hard to 1" with fliers by making boolits softer, at 50 yards. Good enough for deer.
Why would you need expansion with a WLN or WFN in the .44? If I could pile up all the deer at your front door shot with these I would, if it would help. Sorry, I ate them!
The .44 is a mild ***** cat and so is the .45 Colt. The .475 lets you know the gun went off. We spent all day Saturday shooting a .500 JRH, I am none the worse for wear and I am 72+. Been shooting the .44 since 1956, nice, easy going little gun. Even with 320 and 330 gr boolits it feels like a .38.
But you have never proven me wrong, you just keep saying what others have done and if you really go back, you will see what they claim or did was not what I get, not by a long shot.
I do not believe anyone has EVER, EVER shot the groups I get with cast boolits at any distance with revolvers right out of the box. No fancy $3000 guns that I will beat anyway.
I am leaving the gate open so you can enter and show soft boolit groups, come on in.
You notice how light my plinking load is----good start. From that point on the boolit needs to be HARDER as the load is increased but since I use water dropped WW's, 7 gr is the limit unless I want more expensive alloys. What you forget is the extreme pressure punch with fast powder that ruins boolits.

[Bret4207]

just because some ppc shooters use swadged wadcutters isnt any kind of praise for them. I shoot ppc and id guess that 75 percent of the guns that are used have never even seen a load workup and i know of many that havent even been sighted in on a bench. A couple years ago i got into the heads of two of the guys i shoot with that they needed to do some load work. Funny thing is there both handloaders but only loaded cheap bulk bullets and whatever powder they could find that worked. there scores went up from mid 80s to mid 90s just by actually finding a bullet that shot well in there guns. How competitors think they can reliably hit a 2 inch x ring with a a gun that shoots 3 inch groups is beyond me. Id about bet that most of the so called experts using swadged wadcutters either do it because they dont know any better or because there the cheapest bullet they can find. Ask John paul jones. he was a very prominent ppc shooter in his day on the west coast. he will preach to everyone that the only alloy for shooting ppc is linotype. He obviously had a better supply then ive found but he claimed nothing shot near as well. He was no dummy when it came to cast bullets. he was the west coast distributor star

Lloyd, I have no doubt that a guy with a good supply of linotype could work up great loads. And I agree completely about the short range guys with 4" groups, I used to work with a guy who shot a Gold Cup and the absolute cheapest ammo he could find. Zero sense to me. The problem, or my problem anyway, is that the supply of linotype and other enrichment materials is either non-existent or ridiculously expensive. No slight meant to Roto metals or any one else, but free WW vs paying big bucks plus shipping? It's a snapper for me. Same for buying bulk softies and expecting performance equal to properly fitted boolit.

My issue is with those who sell the idea that hardness alone is the key to successful cast shooting. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[44man]

Bret, I was getting under your skin with that!
How else could I get you to post pictures?
Some of what I say is true though, if it wasn't, these pages would be full of good group pictures.
Now you have to find a single post from me where I ever said I am a better shot.
I only know how to get a revolver to work, nothing more, nothing less.
But it seems to irk you to no end and even though you agree with a lot of what I say and even repeat it, you just have to find something to pick apart.
So excuse me while I figure out another post to irk you!
You are easy to rile up!

[45 2.1]

I don't know how to multiple quote, plus- you really aren't worth it.

Hit the multi-quote symbol on each post you want to quote, then hit the post reply. They all come up and you can insert you replies between them.

So excuse me while I figure out another post to irk you! You are easy to rile up!

Things like that work both ways Jim.............. and your rather easy to mess with yourself............... so consider the consequenses.............

[44man]

Hit the multi-quote symbol on each post you want to quote, then hit the post reply. They all come up and you can insert you replies between them.


Things like that work both ways Jim.............. and your rather easy to mess with yourself............... so consider the consequenses.............

Yes, I know but I never get angry, just feel bad and anyone can say anything to me. I actually like Bret, he really does agree with me but should also ease off a little too.
I will and when you see smileys, etc, you know I am just kidding anyway.
And I refuse to use that bold print, it looks too much like hollering. It just might be why Bret can rub a person wrong.
Him and I can agree to disagree if I didn't feel like I was getting screamed at with the bold print. It is not nice, it is not calm and only looks like it is used to pick every sentence apart.
It is like a liberal screaming and talking over a conservative trying to explain reason.
I hope nobody else goes that route.
Just maybe you should give Bret a warning too. I will agree to stop messing with him.