303 Brit brass, preferences?

[bigedp51]

"Also I screwed the pin in an etra turn to shorten the gap between cocking piece and rear of the bolt. This reduced the play between the stud of the cocking piece and the retracting cam surface of the bolt, now the bolt could not kick up nearly as far if it did become loose again. A single extra turn cut the play in half."


Oops, if you screw the firing pin in one extra turn, then the cocking piece will hit the rear of the bolt. Forward travel of the firing pin is to be stopped by the collar of the firing pin hitting the rear of the bolt head. (Bolt head timing controls the gap between the cocking piece and the rear of the bolt body)

Your reducing bolt jump by letting the cocking piece hit and drag on the rear of the bolt and thats a NO NO!

Any other Bubba suggestions on how to mess up a perfectly good Enfield rifle.

[wiljen]

Ok, lets keep it polite. Some of this is starting to be aimed at others rather than just discussing the topic at hand. Disagreement is fine, name calling is not. Clean up your act gents.

[bigedp51]

"Much of the problems with poorly fitted firing pins may come from pins being replaced by untrained personel."


If you screw the firing pin in one full turn the firing pin will protrude from the rear of the cocking piece and the firing pin keeper screw will also protrude. This would be out of adjustment and just plain ugly.



If you screw the firing pin in one complete turn the rear of the cocking piece will hit the rear of the bolt body which it should NOT DO.



Bolt head timing or when the bolt head contacts the collar of the firing and begins pushing the cocking piece to the rear is used for the correct adjustment. You are to have1/64 to 1/16 "air gap" between the bolt body and the cocking piece.



The cocking piece is NOT used as a friction device to prevent bolt jump.

WARNING, maintenance alert

[303Guy]

Thanks for all the good information.

None of my guns have bolt lift during firing. I'n not worried about headspace either but I will check them all with a guage I'll be making sometime. It'll be a no-go guage.

[Multigunner]

Thanks for all the good information.

None of my guns have bolt lift during firing. I'n not worried about headspace either but I will check them all with a guage I'll be making sometime. It'll be a no-go guage.

The bedding instructions in the Canadian Armorers manual are unusual, lots of sheet metal and stiff paper shims.
I noticed they bed the front of the action body about as far back as I'd mentioned earlier but don't seem to bed the rear except at the corner of the interface with the action strap. Not sure how to interpret those drawings, I'll have to study them more closely, they may be on the something there.

[bigedp51]

"The bedding instructions in the Canadian Armorers manual are unusual, lots of sheet metal and stiff paper shims."

There is NO "sheet metal" or "stiff paper shims" used in the standard bedding of the No.4 Enfield rifle, Arborite shims are used in the forward draws area and in American English Arborite is called Formica.

"I'll have to study them more closely, they may be on the something there."

Please do study the bedding instructions in the manuals, the British decided on these bedding methods long before we were born.

You place the shims in the forward section of the draws and the rear of the draws is to contact the receiver socket at the shaded areas. The draws area acts like the second missing bedding "screw" and "draws" the stock up tight into the receiver socket.







If you can stick any size feeler gauge between the fore stock and receiver socket you have wood shrinkage and the draws needs shimming.



You can download these manuals I donated to Milsurps below, also please note my old buddy Multigunner has NEVER donated any Enfield books or manuals anywhere.

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=3322

http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=867

[PAT303]

I'd like to add that in Oz we always set up our range rifles with a sliver of light showing between the forestock and receiver socket.Like most things it isn't black and white,it was trial and error till you bedded it the way it liked to be,no rifle was bedded until it was shot with different packing to see what it liked or didn't like.We mostly shot the Mk111,the No.4 came alot later for us. Pat

[robertbank]

I'd like to add that in Oz we always set up our range rifles with a sliver of light showing between the forestock and receiver socket.Like most things it isn't black and white,it was trial and error till you bedded it the way it liked to be,no rifle was bedded until it was shot with different packing to see what it liked or didn't like.We mostly shot the Mk111,the No.4 came alot later for us. Pat

Ya, my girl is pretty finicky herself. I have the barrel free floating. Not sure I want to bother bedding the rifle until I am satisfied I have wrung all I can out of her unbedded. Then we shall see.

Take Care

Bob

[bigedp51]

I'd like to add that in Oz we always set up our range rifles with a sliver of light showing between the forestock and receiver socket.Like most things it isn't black and white,it was trial and error till you bedded it the way it liked to be,no rifle was bedded until it was shot with different packing to see what it liked or didn't like.We mostly shot the Mk111,the No.4 came alot later for us. Pat

If you Ozmanics would stop drinking that rotgut Fosters beer for long enough to read your own countryman books you would become enlightened.



On top of this the daughter of Jim Sweet has republished her Fathers book "Compeditive Rifle Shooting" first published in Sydney in 1946 which has a full chapter on "The Black Arts of Enfield Bedding".



And as far as "a sliver of light showing between the forestock and receiver socket" I was told by a very experienced Australian shooter the draws area should be as tight as buggery" (I'm innocent and had to look that up and found out thats why we had the War of 1812, the British were "impressing" our sailors)

This Australian range rifle below has screw adjustable draws for tightness where YOU want to see light and the light colored shims to prevent up and down movement and help keep a constant up pressure at the fore end tip.



Now don't argue with me on bedding the Enfield rifle or I shoot you with my magnum "Barbie"

[Multigunner]

I'd like to add that in Oz we always set up our range rifles with a sliver of light showing between the forestock and receiver socket.Like most things it isn't black and white,it was trial and error till you bedded it the way it liked to be,no rifle was bedded until it was shot with different packing to see what it liked or didn't like.We mostly shot the Mk111,the No.4 came alot later for us. Pat

I haven't used any glass on my No.1 MkIII EFD fore end, this came completely untouched as far as bedding goes, not even a relief cut for the bolt takedown latch.
The bedding is shallow enough that it can be deepened and should be to bring the top surface even with the line at top of the action body rail. Figured I'd leave it screwed down tight for awhile then use any marks of impressions as a guide, then deepen where needed by a bit less than 1/16" still short of bringing the lines together. Theres a good deal of extra wood on the undersurfaces.
When settled in just right the only shiming that should be called for would be inside the inletting of the triggerguard to give it plenty of clamping force when screwed down tight.
After that I'll keep track of any improvement over the course of several hundred rounds as the recoil works to settle it all in as evenly as possible.

Most no.1 fore ends I've worked on have room for settling the action body in a tad further. Few seem to have been given more than minimum fitting , and of course most appear to be replacement wood, probably not the first set of replacement wood at that.

The rifle shot decent two MOA with no load development for the previous owner with its warped fore end cut back as a sporter, luckily the numbered nosecap was saved along with other fittings.
The fore end that had been on it was a badly warped but otherwise new looking replacement of a very white wood, probably Indian Whitewood or English White Beech which is known to warp unexpectedly about six months to a year after being finished out as a stock, if it doesn't warp within one year it never will and can make a pretty good and stable stock once you are sure its past the danger period.

The fitting at the action strap seems to be a case of either perfectly even bearing or none at all. If you can't get an even bearing its best to leave it with the sliver of daylight you speak of.

Interference of the squared end of the MkIII stock bolt with its matching slot in the backplate can be a problem. I found my stock bolt was protruding a hair too far and not letting the rear of the fore end come all the way back. There were also some burrs that would bind in the slot. I used a whetrock on the burrs, the steel was too hard to file, and found a very thin washer to fit under the head of the stock bolt. Everything slid into place properly then.
I don't care for the look of the later style stirup type fitting of the No.4 and later Lightgow fore ends, but it and the bolt without the square protusion make bedding a bit simpler.
Old records show complaints of earlier LE buttstocks coming unscrewed, with no long screwdriver handy to tighten them up again, so the square ended bolt and back plate were probably in answer to those complaints.

[herbert buckland]

If you read these books you will see there were difrent metods of beding yoused,but one thing in comon is that all recomend the stock be fimly butted up firmly with the action,by the examples of very acurate rifles i have one a Lithgow set up H rifle and the other H barelled range rifle with cork beding & a ruber gromet at the muzell,firm means tight,to remove the stock you have to jently tap the rear sight guard down,it is to tight to remove by hand,and to be replaced you have to tap it into place by yousing a modified triger guard,that is the way i was shown by a armourer that worked on these rifles half his working life

[Multigunner]

If you read these books you will see there were difrent metods of beding yoused,but one thing in comon is that all recomend the stock be fimly butted up firmly with the action,by the examples of very acurate rifles i have one a Lithgow set up H rifle and the other H barelled range rifle with cork beding & a ruber gromet at the muzell,firm means tight,to remove the stock you have to jently tap the rear sight guard down,it is to tight to remove by hand

The curved section of the left had rail binding against the wood will limit the rearwards movement causing a gap, there are a few other spots that limit the amount the wood can be pressed back by the angled draws.
That curved section is the first place to check though.
You can remove wood very slowly and evenly there by sanding or a small coarse file, not too much because it should maintain contact on the first inch or so when all is tightened down. So long as you can maintain equal contact on the right as well anyway.

[wiljen]

I have asked BigEdp51 for an article version of his posts to add to castpics. If anyone else has ideas they would like to formalize into an article, please let me know.

[PAT303]

If you Ozmanics would stop drinking that rotgut Fosters beer for long enough to read your own countryman books you would become enlightened.



On top of this the daughter of Jim Sweet has republished her Fathers book "Compeditive Rifle Shooting" first published in Sydney in 1946 which has a full chapter on "The Black Arts of Enfield Bedding".



And as far as "a sliver of light showing between the forestock and receiver socket" I was told by a very experienced Australian shooter the draws area should be as tight as buggery" (I'm innocent and had to look that up and found out thats why we had the War of 1812, the British were "impressing" our sailors)

This Australian range rifle below has screw adjustable draws for tightness where YOU want to see light and the light colored shims to prevent up and down movement and help keep a constant up pressure at the fore end tip.



Now don't argue with me on bedding the Enfield rifle or I shoot you with my magnum "Barbie"

If you would get of your high horse for a moment and read my post you would have read that there was no one way to bed a Enfield rifle,I have/had Enfield rifles that had four different bedding styles and no one was better,there is a very good way to bed the Mk111 that worked 99% of the time but seeing your the self proclaimed expert I won't bother telling you what you already know. Pat

[Multigunner]

A correction to something I posted earlier.
I just checked Instructions to Armorers 1931 edition and it gives the max striker protrustion for the No.1 rifles as .042 with the low at .40, not ,050 as I'd said earlier. The No.3 rifle, which probably meant the P-14 has the minimum protrusion as .05 and max .055.
The .045-.050 pin protrusion specs are given in another source, I'll have to backtrack through my PDF files to determine which source gives the longer value.

Probably best to use the .042 protrusion unless there was a reason for the specification to be changed at a later date.

Checked the Instructions for Armorers for the No.4 rifle again, it gives a .040-.050 specification for firing pin protrusion.

The longer value in later manuals may be due to a difference in the primers used in later years.

[herbert buckland]

The curved section of the left had rail binding against the wood will limit the rearwards movement causing a gap, there are a few other spots that limit the amount the wood can be pressed back by the angled draws.
That curved section is the first place to check though.
You can remove wood very slowly and evenly there by sanding or a small coarse file, not too much because it should maintain contact on the first inch or so when all is tightened down. So long as you can maintain equal contact on the right as well anyway.

If the stock could not be tightened by replacing the coper shimes the stock would be replaced by the armourers,these day you can not always do that and the easiest way to fix the problem is to glue a proper sized shim on the back of the stock ,the Indians used the plate on the back simular to the No 4s and it works very well ,i am sure ther are other methods that work that are not in armourers manuals

[Multigunner]

If the stock could not be tightened by replacing the coper shimes the stock would be replaced by the armourers,these day you can not always do that and the easiest way to fix the problem is to glue a proper sized shim on the back of the stock ,the Indians used the plate on the back simular to the No 4s and it works very well ,i am sure ther are other methods that work that are not in armourers manuals

There certainly are, but at this time I'm working with a new condition unissued fore end, so I want to settle it in with the least modification possible.

First No.4 fore end I had to bed was of very badly shrunken and oil perished birch, the rear of the fore end at the action strap was a real mess. I built it up with hardwood shims cut from pieces peeled from some Luan paneling scraps and glued on with JB Weld. The stirup was very loose the wood under it rotted away by oil soaking and hot climate. I cut the end off the brass cross pin built up the wood with shims and JB Weld then replaced the pin with a small dia self threading screw to draw it all tight.
Later I found the proper size brass rods at a hobby shop and use those if a stirup needs work.
Before doing any of that I had to clean the stock throughly with TSP and draw out remaing oil by hanging over a heater in the winter time, oil really flowed once the wood got hot, then cut away whatever wood couldn't be saved.
Sometimes perished fibers can be impregnanted with fiberglass resins and when hardened they look much as if they had not been near dissolved by the oil.

To give you an idea just how low end a birch stock is, I inletted pieces of popcycle sticks to repair chips and gouges, the popcycle sticks were the same grade of birch.
Finding a popcycle stick with grain that matched the damaged section was just a matter of sorting through a bagfull of sticks. A little care in the inletting and an invisible repair can be made.

I've seen a lot of Lithgows with the stirup but these were most likely Indian stock sets used in a refurb, they never had the copper plates at the draws the Lithgow fore ends were supposed to have.

[bigedp51]

If you would get of your high horse for a moment and read my post you would have read that there was no one way to bed a Enfield rifle,I have/had Enfield rifles that had four different bedding styles and no one was better,there is a very good way to bed the Mk111 that worked 99% of the time but seeing your the self proclaimed expert I won't bother telling you what you already know. Pat

I'll mark you down as one of the Australians without a sense of humor, a friend in Orstraya sent me the worlds smallest care package two weeks ago. And he didn't even ask me to get off my horse.

In a Enfield collectors forum there is only one way to bed the Enfield rifle and that is standard military bedding.



Be careful around my horse and don't step in anything



If I made you angry it was not my intent, I'm old school and learned the various Tobruk stocking up methods.

[303Guy]

Canuck Bob, please forgive us for taking your thread a little off topic!

In fact, this thread has turned into a very interesting and informative thread on bedding the Lee Enfield. It's taking on the qualities of a sticky. Perhaps we should ask the moderators to split it into a 'Lee Enfield Bedding' thread and make that a sticky?

Great information!

[PAT303]

I'll mark you down as one of the Australians without a sense of humor, a friend in Orstraya sent me the worlds smallest care package two weeks ago. And he didn't even ask me to get off my horse.

In a Enfield collectors forum there is only one way to bed the Enfield rifle and that is standard military bedding.



Be careful around my horse and don't step in anything



If I made you angry it was not my intent, I'm old school and learned the various Tobruk stocking up methods.

Trust me I'm the most easy going person there is but there isn't a ''right'' way.There used to be ranges the length and breath of Oz but now our government doesn't trust us anymore but each of them had it own 'smith who worked the members rifles over and each had his own trick,they didn't care for collector value either,it was the score that counted.We have many many enfields that today are shot every weekend and I know of two 'smiths that only work on them and guess what,they bed them differently,like I said,it isn't black and white.Just for everyones information we don't drink Fosters,I've never even seen it for sale. Pat