Kapok wad "left behind"

[leadman]

I think the manner the kapok was rolled and inserted into the case might be an issue. I used kapok for a short time but decided I liked the way poly-fil would expand out inside the case better.
It might be possible the kapok did not unroll to keep the powder back in position.

[Eutectic]

I've used Dacron filler over the years and haven't been totally satisfied with it. My feeling is that all the Dacron you can jam in and seat the bullet is not too good..... The little marble sized 'ball' as I've seen illustrated sitting on top of the powder with air space above it, especially in a bottle-neck case, might even be dangerous....
No free air space is always necessary I believe.... I only use granular material (Winchester Super Grex) in bottle-neck loads and have had better accuracy along this path at times.
Non-hygroscopic has some importance. I shot ducks with a guy years ago that put ordinary white flour in his loads for better patterns. He shot one for pattern and part of the shot load punched through like a slug. His loads had been out hunting; and duck hunting can be wet.....

How about Styrofoam???

I believe it was 'Bullshop' that posted success with Styrofoam peanuts for filler.....

I had some shaped like elk droppings. By cutting them in two with a Stanley knife they seemed just right for a .38-55 I was testing. I was using some surplus 680 ball powder... and ball powder never likes 'air space' in my testing experience. My 260gr gascheck boolit shot superb in my Model 94 at 1700fps! Very uniform velocities!
I played some more with my .375 Winchester, pushing even harder.. Again great results!

Anyone else use Styrofoam? My testing is limited, but shows merit for me so far. I don't know if any 'hidden' disadvantage is lurking in its use or not?

Eutectic

[elk hunter]

[
How about Styrofoam???

Anyone else use Styrofoam? My testing is limited, but shows merit for me so far. I don't know if any 'hidden' disadvantage is lurking in its use or not?

Eutectic[/QUOTE]

Interesting thought. I hope someone works on this further as I'm tired of stuffing dacron in some of the bigger cases just to get ignition. Does the styrofoam melt? If it does I'd be concerned about deposits in the bore. A friend uses styrofoam dissolved in lacquer thinner for clear coating paint jobs on trailers that he builds and it is very tough stuff.

For those that don't like dacron, Graeme Wright, "Shooting The British Double Rifle", is a proponent of using grey packing foam and Kynoch uses foam in some of its current big bore loadings and apparently sells the foam wads. I've not tried them as Ross Seyfried feels they may cause ringed chambers.

The debate continues.

[Pepe Ray]

Over many years and hundreds of postings of this subject, I'm amazed and somewhat discouraged that no one has properly described the condition of the loaded cartridge when "Dacron" is used correctly.
DuPont used the word 'loft' when advertising for the superb insulator/filler in so many of the quality sleeping bags introduced in the '50's. (Many times replacing Kapok as the filler for obvious reasons.)
Loft is what you're trying to attain. It's a combination of air and a substance filling up the remaining space to allow more air while keeping the pocket from collapsing. The more dead air space, the better the insulation. LOFT!
Although in a cartridge the walls of the pocket will not collapse we need to maintain the position of the powder. The spring of the Dacron will do that. This is where the lack of memory comes in.
I have Mr. Seyfried's articles where he uses 'LOFT' to aid his description. He also spends more time on 'technique' in applying the TUFT (thank you Bruce) to the cavity. Whereas many loaders will stuff it in with a rubber tipped pencil R.S. advised dragging it down to the bottom by engaging a bit of the end and inserting it, pulling the remainder thru the neck to minimize the compaction. This may cause some of the TUFT to remain outside the mouth but is easily inserted with a fine instrument such as a flat tooth pick.
This probably sounds too time consuming for our varmint shooting friends and is not for everyone.
I hope this draws a more complete picture of the need for 'LOFT'' and how it is attained.
Pepe Ray

[Eutectic]

Does the styrofoam melt? If it does I'd be concerned about deposits in the bore.

elk hunter,

Not melted as I can see. Shredded would be a better description. I shot 70 yards to my backstop; across my back deck for the first 10 yards. The Styrofoam remnants are from BB size maybe up to 1/8" dia. x 3/8" long max. They are sooted, not melted and have a range of about 10 feet for the larger particles.
I see no bore residue difference other than maybe a little cleaner.

Eutectic

[Mk42gunner]

Gentlemen,

I haven't used dacron for loading cartridges yet, but I am sure there will come a time I want to. The filling of the airspace with a tuft that has plenty of "loft" makes sense to me.

AS to buying dacron, I am cheap, (frugal sounds better). Here is the way to get all the dacron any three people could ever use. Start by having a daughter that likes stuffed animals, but doesn't put her toys up. Add one puppy that is teething. Equals dacron for years. Especially if the puppy survives to operate on more stuffed animals.

Please note that I did not say this is the cheapest way to get dacron, but it is entertaining.


Robert

[NoDakJak]

It may be possible that your light load of power has completely burnt before exiting that long barrel If it has exceeded its maximum expansion ratio it may be forming a partial vacuum in the barrel and sucking the wad back down when the boolit exits the muzzle.
Quite a few years ago i read an article by I believe Jack Oconnor that stated that one of the large ammo companies had ran tests on 22 long rifle rounds to determine the most effective barrel length. It was discovered that with the powder used at that time the most effective barrel length was 16 1/2 to eighteen inches. They stated that maximum expansion had been achieved in that barrel ength and that normally longer barrels actually provided lower velocity due to friction. Nothing was mentioned about a partial vacuam and I don't know if this factor has ever been tested. In the late seventies I encountered a somewhat similar situatation. I was shooting a Australian Martini that had been rebored to 357 Magnum The cases were military surplus 38 specials with the 357429 Lyman and stoked with a full case of Pyrodex. The load was accurate but exceedingly strange sounding sounding. Whenever I pulled the trigger the sound was a hollow "THUNK" as if I had pulled the cork from an empty jug!
Perhaps I am straying up the wrong path but more powder or a slower burning powder should cure this oddity. Hopes this helps. Neil

[Cap'n Morgan]

Strange phenomenon indeed.

Even with a light load, the pressure when the bullet exits the muzzle will be around a 1000 psi - a vacuum simply cannot form. My best guess is that pressure somehow builds up on both sides of the kapok filler before the kapok is fully compressed - perhaps as a result of some of the powder being blown past the filler by the primer before complete ignition.

[softpoint]

My take on Dacron fillers is that it doesn't matter much whether you use "just a pinch" fluffed up, or a bit more slightly packed, as long as there is no air space between the filler and the bullet base. I've done it both ways and cannot tell any difference. Now, I say SLIGHTLY packed, or "poked" into the case, not jackhammer packed! Also, my experience with fillers is limited to Dacron, toilet paper in straight sided cases. I didn't care for the toilet paper. Some folks use Cream of Wheat, and claim it is the best, and claim it forms it's own "gascheck", allowing higher velocity with plainbased lead bullets. I've never tried it. I'd think the Cream of Wheat, if tried, might need to be weighed and the extra weight compensated for? Somewhere here I have an article by Elmer Keith where he used Cream of Wheat. (sort of unusual for Elmer to be looking for a way to occupy extra space in a case, he was usually looking for a way to get MORE powder in!)

[chasw]

Thanks, Softpoint. Good advice - the primary objective is to hold the powder against the flashhole and fill the space right up to the base of the boolit, no airpockets. The weight of the tuft is not particular important. Therefore, I need to stop fussing about how light can I go (.4 grains plus/minus a tenth) and start focusing on avoiding airpockets below the boolit.

Dacron seems ideal for this purpose since one grain puffs up more than needed in most military cartridges. I've tried cream of wheat and cornmeal in the past, results were not impressive and they left a tenacious coating inside the bore. - CW

[onondaga]

I always believed that nightmare scenario was possible with Kapoc. Thanks for verifying. I use BPI Original Ballistic Filler in my .458 Win Mag for reduced loads and get great results.

[The Double D]

My take on Dacron fillers is that it doesn't matter much whether you use "just a pinch" fluffed up, or a bit more slightly packed, as long as there is no air space between the filler and the bullet base. I've done it both ways and cannot tell any difference. Now, I say SLIGHTLY packed, or "poked" into the case, not jackhammer packed! Also, my experience with fillers is limited to Dacron, toilet paper in straight sided cases. I didn't care for the toilet paper. Some folks use Cream of Wheat, and claim it is the best, and claim it forms it's own "gascheck", allowing higher velocity with plainbased lead bullets. I've never tried it. I'd think the Cream of Wheat, if tried, might need to be weighed and the extra weight compensated for? Somewhere here I have an article by Elmer Keith where he used Cream of Wheat. (sort of unusual for Elmer to be looking for a way to occupy extra space in a case, he was usually looking for a way to get MORE powder in!)

I don't recall any writing by Kieth using cream of wheat. But then I don't recall all Kieth writings either. I do know that P.O. Ackley advocated Cream of Wheat for case forming.

The granular solids including in my experience shotgun fillers should work just fine with straight wall cases. Don't put them in bottlenecks, as they will have to extruded to get through the smaller neck.

[August]

1. I have used Dacron filler in straight walled cases (45-70 & 38-55).
2. I have had Dacron burn into a "ball/wad/mass" and remain in the cartridge case upon firing.
3. I have ringed the chamber on an expensive hi-wall.
4. I would love to keep low density powder loads down, next to the primer.

But, after reading this topic for the umpteenth time (seems like we come back to this one every six months or so), I still don't know how to use fillers safely and consistently.

If someone wants to post a concise, bulleted list of precisely how to use fillers successfully, I'd be the first one to appreciate it and the comments (also in brief, bulleted format) to follow it.

I was confused when I came in here, but it is much, much worse now.

That's no way to play with, talk about, or teach about firearms.

[Ohio Rusty]

Is there any synthetic material or plasitc type filler in the kapok? Is it possible the kapok could be melting from the ignition, and that is clinging or what is helping the kapok to stick inside of the bore? Of course by the time you get to is, it has now hardened with no evidence of melting. The gasses behind the kapok should be enough to push everything out of the bore. Can you try something different to see if the result is the same ? (cotton balls maybe?)
Ohio Rusty ><>

[chasw]

August reminds us that we are playing with fire here. Ringing the chamber of an expensive rifle is no small matter. By coincidence, I'm currently working on some cast bullet loads for my .375 mag, an ultra fine left-handed M70 Winchester Super Express. Based on August's cautionary note, I am dropping SR4756 from the short list of powders I am experimenting with.

Although approx 25 grains of 4756 usually gives excellent accuracy and very uniform velocities with my 300 grainer boolits, its these fast powders that probably pose the greatest risk of ringed chambers. I'm guessing some form of secondary explosive effect (SEE) is at work here, akin to what occasionally happens in pistols, where the small charge of fast powder forms some kind of wave similar to a shaped charge of plastique. My tuft of dacron serves well to position the powder next to the primer, as evidenced by the very tight extreme spreads, but perhaps does not entirely mitigate the risk posed by all that space between the powder and the boolit.

Accordingly, I am shifting my powder selections for 300 grain cast loads in the .375 mag to slower numbers, all with dacron filler:
- RL-7 for about 1800 fps,
- IMR4198 for about 2000
- 19 grains of RL-15 for 2150 to 2200 fps

This latter load fills about 80% of the free space under the boolit in the .375 H&H case. If everything jives and produces excellent accuracy, it could suffice as a hunting load for the monster elk that live here in Western Washington. - CW

[The Double D]

1. I have used Dacron filler in straight walled cases (45-70 & 38-55).
2. I have had Dacron burn into a "ball/wad/mass" and remain in the cartridge case upon firing.
3. I have ringed the chamber on an expensive hi-wall.
4. I would love to keep low density powder loads down, next to the primer.

But, after reading this topic for the umpteenth time (seems like we come back to this one every six months or so), I still don't know how to use fillers safely and consistently.

If someone wants to post a concise, bulleted list of precisely how to use fillers successfully, I'd be the first one to appreciate it and the comments (also in brief, bulleted format) to follow it.

I was confused when I came in here, but it is much, much worse now.

That's no way to play with, talk about, or teach about firearms.

There is a book that has been written on shooting the way you describe and address the issues you mention.

The book is called The Modern Schuetzen rifle by Wayne Schwartz and Charles Dell. It is available from http://www.assra.com/Books_For_Sale.htm.

From what you describe, you do not need a filler, you need a wad. You need to learn the difference between a wad and a filler. The book will tell how to properly use a wad in reduced loads.

Charlie talks about the chamber ringing in the book. He demonstrates how it occurs and recreates it in his test. He then tells how to avoid it. Well worth the read from a person of experience and knowledge.