MidSouth Shooters SupplyTitan ReloadingADvertise hereLee Precision
RotoMetals2Inline FabricationRepackbox

Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: 9.4 rimmed- Belgian Nagant help needed?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta Ga.-X NYC boy
    Posts
    364

    9.4 rimmed- Belgian Nagant help needed?

    Hi Guys,

    In a fit of madness, I bought a nice Belgian Nagant that seems to be in 9.4x23R
    AFTER I bought it! (Read AFTER!) I tried to find some infomation on it & what it should sell for! I AM SICK!

    It looked nice, it is a Belgian Nagant 1887 Officers model (hex barrel)
    low serial # 12xx It has a good bore. But I cannot find anything about the rimmed cases or the gun for that matter.
    I don't know if it is rated for smokeless powder, as the Belgian proofs are not in the proof book I have.
    Any & all infomation on this pistol is welcome.

    It looks like a 40 S&W or 10 mm case will fit in the chamber correctly.
    (like we do with 7.62x38R Nagant ammo- 32 S&W longs or 32 H&R mags. fit)

    I have to find a die, that will neck the case down to .368/.370 bullet size from the .400
    Anyone have any ideas what will work.

    Can you help me find out if real bullets are to be found.

    I think this is the BIGGEST boner I have done so far!

    Ha-Ha! Has any one else been down this road? All I are see are bones!

    Thanks for any help,
    broom

  2. #2
    Super Moderator




    Buckshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    So. California
    Posts
    11,758
    ...............Ah now Broomhandle. Quit being so hard on yourself! This is your chance to EXCELL! Heck most of us are a bit wierd when it comes to guns, and just picking up some old boolit mould is grounds for the search for a firearm, brass, dies and other stuff to go with it. Ain't that right?

    If you've found that either of those 2 common peestol cartridges will work, you're 80% home, if not more. Just think you might have had to spend another $600 to buy one of those little 7" lathes to turn rims or something

    I bought a neat little Belgium made carbine for a Brazilian contract 6-7 years ago and I'd never even HEARD of it, let alone picked one up. The cartridge was so fat at the head and with such a fat rim and fast taper, finding something to use was a real nightmare until I discovered the Mag-Tech 32 ga shotgun shells.

    I doubt very much that the pistol would be nitro proofed since smokless wasn't even used in anything till 1886. That was in rifles too. If you can find some reference you may find that Belgium did one of 2 things. Either developed a smokless round suitable for it and had them re-proofed, or they went to a whole new pistol.

    If all it will take is a neck sizer, shoot me a PM and we can talk about it. Sounds like fun to me!

    .................Buckshot
    Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always

    Proud former Shooters.Com Cast Bullet alumnus and plank owner.

    "The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."

    Shrink the State End the Fed Balance the budget Make a profit Leave an inheritance

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wyoming
    Posts
    3,076

    book

    You might want to check the handloaders guide to cartridge conversion book to see if there is any info in it. I have a copy but am not near it at the moment. I will try to remember to have a look tonight.

  4. #4
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Little Egypt, Part of the political fifedom of Chicago
    Posts
    7,099
    Quote Originally Posted by broomhandle
    .368/.370 bullet size. Can you help me find out if real bullets are to be found.
    From just the size you've stated, perhaps the Lyman 37583 mold would do. It sizes down to that range nicely and weighs about 155 gr.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta Ga.-X NYC boy
    Posts
    364
    Hi, Guys,

    Thanks for the support! I will look into the bullet mold. I have Midway catolog handy.

    I really don't see a need for the rim "IF" I can just size a case to fit inside the chambers. Then I can resize or form the area to hold the boolet in place in
    the case.

    I have to look some more on the net there has to be site with the infomation needed.
    I must have spent 5-6 hours so far, with little to show for the time invested.

    Someone said on another board that 44-40 fit the chamber on one of his Belgian Nagant buy not the other , he thought it was strange.
    Be well,broom

  6. #6
    Boolit Grand Master
    9.3X62AL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Redlands, NorKifornia
    Posts
    11,491
    How about 41 Colt as parent brass? Not exactly abundant itself, but maybe a place to start.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta Ga.-X NYC boy
    Posts
    364
    Hi guys,

    I found some sizes on the net.

    The proper name should be Belgian Nagant 9x23R (it does measure bigger)

    Total length 1.350 --
    case length.898 -- base size .420--
    case at neck.390-- rim thickness .048--
    bullet .373 no weight listed-- rim size .480?--
    I don't understand base size Vs rim size?
    It should be the same right?

    It looks like I have to buy or borrow a cart. conver. book!
    I have to wait till next week for it.
    I'm guessing it's black powder, or one of the first smokless pistols to come out.

    If you have time please give a look at your books for me.

    Thanks for any help, it is appreaciated,

    Be well,
    broom
    Last edited by broomhandle; 07-07-2006 at 07:08 PM.

  8. #8
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Little Egypt, Part of the political fifedom of Chicago
    Posts
    7,099
    With a miniture lathe, the 30-30 case would be an easy conversion. Thin the rim and turn it down. Trim case and expand.

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta Ga.-X NYC boy
    Posts
    364
    Hi 45 2.1,

    Holy COW ! I think your right!
    I can get a bunch of 30-30 cases to fool with.

    OOH! The LIGHT came on in my small brain!
    They gave me the front case dim.=.390 & the back of the case by the rim .420

    Cut the cases to size, get a 375 sizeing die or I can use my pals lathe to cobble some thing up to make a taper on the case.
    I can use 7/8 14 threaded stock & harden it with that case hardning compound.

    This can work! AAH I see a small business makeing exotic ammo. for guys like us!

    Naa !Old west Scrounger has that sewed up.

    Thanks a lot this might work! I looked thru the few books I have & missed that TOTALLY!
    Any & all help is welcome here!

    Be well,
    broom

  10. #10
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Hampton Roads, Virginia
    Posts
    12,010
    Another idea. NEI lists a .375-90-C&B #175A. For a light bullet I think that will work. They also have a couple of .375-200gr options for a heavier bullet. 2 cavity mould for $80 isn't bad. Only ten more than Mountian Molds. Shoot them as cast or swage them down to 323". Rick (Buckshot) will make you a sizer if needed, and maybe some dies if needed.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta Ga.-X NYC boy
    Posts
    364
    Hi Fellows,

    I got a hold of five empty 30-30 cases so far.
    i'm going to cut them down later today.

    My short plan is to take a few .38 wadcutters & crush them in the vise till they are about.373 & load with 2-3 grains of bullseye. I know it's not going to be a real accurate or well made bullet but ,I just have to try it out.

    I don't have any thing handy to crimp it but I can bell it with a steel tool I have.

    More later,
    broom

  12. #12
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta Ga.-X NYC boy
    Posts
    364
    Hi 45 2.1 & other intrested posters,

    I cut the 30-30 cases down, they fit like they were made for it!
    Just had to polish the bases of the 30-30 cases a tad.
    They needed a little push to seat flat in the chambers.

    ID on the cases seems to be about .375 I took a few 38 wadcutters & crushed them in the vise to about .373 ( true bullet size)
    They fit the cases well, also fired two primers with no problems.

    I will look for more infomation on bullet weight & if the pistol is proofed for smokeless powder.
    Any one have a guess for abullet wt. & mild powder charge?

    I'm in no rush to trash this fine old revolver. I think I have a old worn 38 wadcutter mold I may try to ream it to .374/.375

    Thanks for your help & intrest in this old lady,

    Best,
    broom

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

    Johnch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    3,127
    I was thinking ( dangerous I know ) how about OOOO buck shot for your bullet .
    It is .380 , a quick trip thru a .375 sizer should be what you need and then throw on a little Lee liquid Alox .

    Balistic Productes sells it .

    The reason I thought of it .
    I just came in from smacking a ground hog with a OO buck shot out of the 8 MM mauser .

    IMO it might solve 1 problem .

    I would try some 3F and some COW filler in your cases

    Johnch
    Yea, thou I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for thou art with me; Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.
    And I carry a SIG

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    East TN
    Posts
    1,026
    Hi Broom. I just saw you discussion and hope the following data will help. I searched the "Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions" by John Donnelly for your caliber. I used the dimensions you had posted and found the following to be a really close match:

    9.4mm Dutch Revolver
    boolit: .380 diameter lead at 150 grains.
    rim diameter: .490
    rim thickness: .042
    head diameter: .430 (just forward of the rim)
    neck diameter: .410
    case length: .810
    Loaded length: 1.14
    Charge: 1.2 grains Bullseye
    Velocity: 600 fps

    9.4mm Dutch East Indies
    (described as a long version of above)
    boolit: same
    case length: 1.07
    loaded length: 1.29
    all other case specs are the same
    Charge: 1.3 grains Bullseye
    Velocity: Not stated.

    Case Preparation: Use .303 Savage brass (yeah, right, another cheap and easy chore!). Cut case to appropriate length. Turn rim to .490" diameter and trim to correct thickness .042". Ream the insides of the neck, chamfer and full length size. With the low pressure loads you would use in this caliber, 30/30 brass should work very well. Just to get a good bore fit, consider looking for a round-ball mold at .380 diameter, or follow the earlier post on buying buckshot already prepared. These should allow your octagon-barrel prize to start talking again!

    Hope the above helps out with your project.

    Thin Man

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta Ga.-X NYC boy
    Posts
    364
    Hi Thin man & other helpful posters,

    Thanks for the infomation! You guys are life saver for me!
    It would take weeks of screwing around for me to get all the infomation you fellows have given me in two days!

    I took a ride over to our local Books A Million & Barns & Noble, to buy a copy this afternoon, with no luck.

    Sorry they were selling in this store, we returned them!

    Thin man, Did the book say if the Dutch revolvers was a smokeless powder gun?

    I might just take a few 0000 buck shotsells apart.

    Really guys, thanks alot for the help!

    Be well & safe,
    broom

  16. #16
    Boolit Grand Master
    Mk42gunner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Butler, MO
    Posts
    6,724
    Broom,
    What about using .375 swaged round balls for a 36 cal cap and ball revolver? It would be cheaper than buying a box of 0000 buckshot.

    Robert

  17. #17
    Super Moderator




    Buckshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    So. California
    Posts
    11,758
    Quote Originally Posted by broomhandle
    Hi Thin man & other helpful posters,

    Thanks for the infomation! You guys are life saver for me!
    It would take weeks of screwing around for me to get all the infomation you fellows have given me in two days!
    Really guys, thanks alot for the help!

    Be well & safe,
    broom
    .............See! Didn't I say this was a whacked out bunch? Talk about thinking outside the box, we've never seen the INSIDE.

    ..............Buckshot
    Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always

    Proud former Shooters.Com Cast Bullet alumnus and plank owner.

    "The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."

    Shrink the State End the Fed Balance the budget Make a profit Leave an inheritance

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wyoming
    Posts
    3,076

    place to get book

    Here is a link to the news release for the updated edition. it gives a couple of places to purchase.

    http://media.benelliusa.com/Upload/S...anual.rel2.doc

    I would like to have the newer version, but the first edition has served me well since 1991.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    East TN
    Posts
    1,026
    Broom -

    The Donnelly text made NO mention on whether the original revolver was proofed for black powder or smokeless. Given the era when this revolver was produced, I would suspect that black powder was the standard loading. Also, Donnelly is not the true author of this data. He assembled his book from data he collected from multiple other ammunition/reloading sources. He listed the source for this information as four letters. I cannot remember them now, but I did not recognize the abbreviations and did not locate a chart in his book that spelled out the entire name of the source cited. I can look for that source later if you think it would help your search.

    Thin Man

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Augusta Ga.-X NYC boy
    Posts
    364
    Hi Thin man & other posters,

    A fellow in Holland ( on the Luger board) came up with a picture of my gun.
    They were issued to Belgian customs officals in 1901.
    He is looking for more infomation. He has one Serial #5xx his has the standard proofs on his revolver, my proofs are diffrent! (?) Serial # 12xx

    I am more than a little curious if I made a good deal or now!

    I'm really hot about trying it out.

    Will I blow up a black powder gun if I load 1 1/2 - 1 3/4 grains of Bulleseye behind a 147 grain LEAD wadcutter?

    I hae no experiance with black powder.
    I crushed a few 38 bullets in the vise to the bore size of 373-375

    Thanks for any help,
    broom

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check