12GA FH Slug Tester --

[hubel458]

Testing soft buckhammer vs hard Dixie. Dixie 600 gr,
Buckhammer from factory hull 640gr with locked on wad,both
out of Savage at 2300. Dixie went through 2 -1/8" steel
sheets and on through two more 3 feet away.Buckhammer
went through first two with same round hole, but made
a bunch of dents and one cockeyed hole 3 ft away.Ed

[hubel458]

Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759
and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers,
that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can
get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is
IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect ignition with regular primers. 8 types cases,600gr cast slug
starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus
in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full
didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has
a card wad under slug in 3" plastic.Wad just tight on
charge, as no extreme compression of powder needed.
Will do heavier slugs and
RMC brass cases. Ed

[hubel458]

Tested 7383 with 730gr Dixie, 130gr gets 1650 plus fps
in NEF 24" bbl. Used 3" plastic cases. Same low expansion
as 7383 the 600gr loads and the 4759 lab tested loads.
Ignition perfect, no hesitation.Ed

[hubel458]

Tested 800g cast slug with 7383 in plastic.Works good.
Have question about different cases and dies.
The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3"
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing extractor to
damage rim. A turned rim will not take what
a drawn one will. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed

[hubel458]

Finished test of 7383/870 slug in NEF.
Tested 870gr hardened slug with 118gr of
7383, got 1500 plus. Perfect ignition.
Cases ejected easy, and has same base
expansion as the 600 gr slug/140gr 7383.
Will have these pressure/velocity tested
in few weeks.Ed

[hubel458]

Tested a 750 gr banded solid, grooves .009 smaller
than land diameter and got same velocity as
with lead slug weighing the same at same pressure.
Other banded brass slugs with groove debth
same as land raised pressures compared to lead.
Got 2700 easy with 750gr, in long case in Savage.
But for most game still like hardened lead. Ed

[hubel458]

The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed

[hubel458]

Anyone got any long 12ga rifled 30" plus
barrels, 1.3" plus diameter. Barrel
guy is shutting down and returning funds.
Been waiting for 12ga heavy barrel for
87 levergun since last summer.Boy it is
hard getting projects done.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is a simple outline of what we've done with
our project we call the 12GA From Hell.
Some folks have asked us to do this.

A. The idea for this and the name was by
Robgunbuilder on the AR forum. We figured out how
to make a long brass case, from BMG brass by
machining rims and the case to screw them on.
We ended up with case after mouth was
annealed, fireformed, and expanded to 12ga,
that was 3.85" long, with a big BMG primer.

B. Rob put his in a big Borchardt falling block,
a gun that can take full BMG type pressures.
It had firing mechanision that fired primers ok.
Example top load is a 1000gr turned brass slug at
3100 plus fps, and a 7/8oz 12ga sabot at
4300 fps.

C. First of mine in a Savage 210 bolt shotgun with a
heavy rifled 31" barrel. My loads in this were kept
below 35,000 psi. Giving loads of 2700 fps with
a 730 gr hard lead slug, and 3900 with 3/4oz sabot.
Second gun was a NEF Ultra that I lengthened chamber
to take long case. Top loads are 600gr hard slug
at 2500 plus fps.Both Savage and NEF had to have
firing mechanisions beefed up to fire BMG primers.

D. We cut cases back to use in 3" chambers but
all guns have to have beefed up hammers, etc,
to fire the big BMG primers.The BMG primers
fired the slow rifle powders ROB and I
were using very well, no misfires.
So tried 3" RMC brass cases, regular plastic cases,
our cut back cases with primer bushings, all with
smaller regular rifle or shotgun primers,
that regular hammers or firing pins fire ok,
and found out that our slow rifle powder loads
wouldn't fire reliably with small primers.
The slow powders in large diameter cases
needed BMG primers to work. So to use small primers-

E. We went to much more research. We found that
slow powders could be fired with a 10 gr of a
fast shotgun starter powder, under the slow powder,
using small primers. This concept has beeen
used in NE cases. We also searched for rifle
or pistol powders slower than shotgun powders,
that would fire with small primers and no starter,
that didn't up peak pressure to fast as
we increased loads to increase velocity.
We didn't want to over expand RMC brass or
blow out the rims on regular plastic cases
We found three- IMR 4759, VV-N110, and 7383 surplus.
These powders are easier to load for slugs without
the problems of fast shotgun powders pushing up
the peak pressures to quick, as you try to increase
loads to up the velocity. We use a minimum
thickness overpowder wad or other wads in the loads
under the slugs as needed. We had lab test 4759
loads with 600gr slug and pressures were little less
than the magnum REM Buckhammer factory loads, but
we got 400 fps more velocity. The Buckhammer
slug and locked on wad is about 600 gr.Both our tested
loads and Rem loads are 3" plastic.Our loads are for heavy
barreled guns only. IE; all slow powder loads whether
with starter powder or 4759,N110, 7383, use heavy barrels,
as the pressure curve is higher down the barrel
and might split regular skinny shotgun barrels.

F. We plan on heavy barrels for testing 1887 Win
leverguns, for Mossberg 695 bolt guns, for
various heavy double shotguns, for various
O/U, for modern alloy guns, etc.We are helping to
design a big falling block for 12ga diameter
that can take high full load pressures,
that is reasonably priced.. We plan on testing
other powders, for use with small primers. We
plan on setting up pressure testing barrel for
the long 3.85" case, to test the whole range
of slow powders and bullet weights, in the future.
The testing lab now can only do 3" 12ga cases.
We have found heatreated Dixie slugs that can
take super velocities, we found brass slugs with
relieved grooves that run same pressures as lead,
or copper jacketed, at same velocities.
We found 7383 powder pushes 870gr safely, full loads,
in 3 inch plastic, RMC 3" brass, etc cases.
This research and work is super great fun,
we are glad to share.We will get pictures soon of
the muzzle blast with long case, and pics
of penetration tests. Ed

[hubel458]

Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases. 600gr slug.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759. My earlier
report of 4227 not working was in error
due to what looks like 4198 in a jug
hand labeled 4227 I got in sale years ago.
Greg told me 4227 worked for him so I got new
jug, and saw the difference from jug I had.

So slower than shotgun, powders that ignite
properly; we have 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder that works with
real heavy slugs also. Ed

[hubel458]

Pressure tested 7383 with heavy powder load.
870 gr hard, heat treated, slug;
with 128 gr of 7383-- All that could
be put in REM plastic and keep length to what
would feed from magazine of a 3" gun,
after it was roll crimped with tool in drillpress.
1513 fps-- 14700 psi. That is a slug 50%
heavier than factory Buckhammer at little
faster speed and at little less pressure.
Ignition perfect, cases fall out.
Love that $3 a lb powder.Ed

[BluesBear]

due to what looks like 4198 in a jug
hand labeled 4227 I got in sale years ago.

This is why you should NEVER handle powder that is in anything other than the original factory container.
There are so many powders that look exactly like another that visial inspection is not always accurate. Never trust any gun show or second hand powder unless it's still factory sealed.

With over 150 powders available to todays reloaders you can't be too careful.
With so many having similar names or numbers it's all too easy for someone to get them confused. Just because it has the same number doesn't mean it's the same powder.

And burn rate charts aren't gospel either. They are to be used as a guideline at best. Powder X may burn faster than Powder Z in a .223 case but slower in a .300 Weatherby case.
You may be able to use the exact same charge of Powder A as Powder B in a 9mm case but discover a drastic difference in safe loads when used in a .45 Colt.
With some powders it doesn't matter if you use a standard or a magnum primer.
With other powders it makes a huge difference.
Trail Boss is a good example.
Using a 158gr lead bullet in .38 Special cases, 4.2gr gives you 804fps with a standard primer.
Using that same 158gr lead bullet in .357 Magnum cases, that same 4.2gr gives you 865fps with a magnum primer.
There's a big pressure difference between those two loads.
Normally when using the exact same load in both cases, the .357 Magnum will yeild slightly lower velocities and pressures that what you get with .38 Special brass.

I store my powders in a separate room. I only have one bottle/keg of powder at a time in my loading room. And I never leave powder in my measure when I'm not loading.

[hubel458]

I had tested the fastest stick powders already
so there was no danger of overpressure, as anything
else would be slower. And it was slower, and didn't ignite
properly, givinf me wrong info about what
I though I had. But we got the IMR4227 working
ok, so we will in next weeks test it with heavier than
600gr, by steps- 730gr- 800gr, 870gr. ED.

[BluesBear]

H458, my concerns were intended as a general caution for everyone, not as an abmonishment directed towards you.

I would have thought 4198 would have worked well, it has long been touted as a good choice for large, straightwalled, low pressure cartridges.
Perhaps what you had either wasn't 4198 (there have been several different producers over the years) OR if it was, it had been improperly stored. Which is another reason to only use the factory container.

Especially with plactic. For many (hundreds?) years powders were only packaged in metal or cardboard/fiberboard "cans". It's only been (fairly) recently that plastic containers were used for gunpowders.

Because certain plastics, (certain ones, not all of them) when exposed to certain (there's that word again) gunpowders, over time, may cause a reaction that alters the powder as well as the plastic. And neither is changed for the better.

[hubel458]

We tested what I know for sure is 4198 from fairly new can
In cases up to as large as my 585HE with base same size range
as 577NE(.660")fired fine with regular primers. Every powder I have
fires in that size case with large rifle primer and mag shotgun primers
are stronger than lg rifle. But when case diameter goes to .800
like 12ga or my 700HE or 50BMG then regular primers don't
work on most rifle powders, hence a bmg primer that is 3 times
as strong as lg rifle. In 12ga 4198 misfired or had delayed fire(this
one is when you hear hammer strike then a boom), about half
the loads. Very disconcerting and interesting to say the least.
We can use all powders as I related in posts a while back,
in cases with large rifle primers like magteck or other plastic
cases with shotgun primers, or RMC brass with shotgun primers,
if starter powder like Blue Dot is used. About 10 gr. And best
powder for doing that with is in mid range of the chart.. Ed

[hubel458]

Finally able to make the
longer barrel improvement on
the 1887 12ga levergun.......
Rifled and heavy and 31"
long. After many months finally got
a barrel.Ed

[hubel458]

With NEF. Plastic cases, roll crimped slug
in drillpress. 82gr IMR 4227 1650 fps,
with 730gr, 78 gr 4227 with 800gr, 1600.
Expansion on cases show little more pressure
as full loads of 4759 and 600gr.
Ignition perfect with small primers.
Ejects cases fine. Burns clean.
Got a GEHA bolt 12ga to put a heavier
rifled barrel on to test. Ed

[hubel458]

Tested 870 gr in NEF with our long
brass case with big primer.I have NEF
with extra hammer spring for big primer.
Got 2000 fps and still able to extract case.
Would do little more, extractor needs
to be wider and set up positive.
Used 260gr of WC-860 and MagPro.
Could use RL-22, Rl-25, Retumbo, etc.
That's 7700 ft lbs.. I get 600 gr slug to
2300 plus in NEF, long case. so you can go
light or heavy.Ed

[hubel458]

More testing with 4227. Greg got little over 1500 fps in
3" plastic with 870 gr slug using 74-75 gr of 4227.
I did the same. This compares to much lighter
REM Buckhammer slug, we have more speed. Almost all
the way through 5 ft bundle hardwood boards.
I have Mossy 695 as well as GEHA 12 gauge
to put heavy rifled barrels on. And my 87.
Will be checking Mossy 395
for a guy who wants to put on
a heavy barrel.Here is pic of 695 bolt action
Mossberg with dinky barrel and the heavy long
rifled barrel for it. Ed

[lar45]

Hi Ed, great stuff.
Thanks for the condensed update, I have this all saved in word for future reference.
You might consider writeing a book with load developement info.
12 Bore Slugs and Beyond, WAY BEYOND...
A Journey into Huge Slugs at Unreal Velocities...

On the Mossberg 695/395, is it a twinn lug front locking bolt similar to the Savage 210?
How do you think the strength of them compares to the Savage bolt action and the NEF Ultra Slug break open?

Glenn.