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Thread: 12GA FH Slug Tester --

  1. #81
    Slug Master
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    Now these loads are for only heavy barreled
    steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12,
    or like my Savage with heavy barrel added.
    I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and
    it will be long.There are some turn bolt
    locking lug pumpguns that would work
    with heavy barrels.There is a large
    12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported.
    This week if weather allows(no rain)
    I will be firing first test loads of my
    700HE long belted case.Ed.

  2. #82
    Slug Master
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    I want to see this scaled up to take
    700HE, 12ga FH, 700NE, 50bmg, Rob's 700, etc,
    or even 4bore, 8bore,20mm, 900HE.Anyone else
    interested jump in. Were going to give it
    a try. Ed.



  3. #83
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    Lloyd Smale's Avatar
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    hell i think this is real fasinating. I still remember when they said that the 44 mag was not needed and was to powerful to shoot. Now were shooting .475s and .500s and there not even top of the food chain in power. Alot of guys are in shotgun only hunting areas and im sure some of this technology will translate into better slug loads for the avearge guy. I think a high velocity flat shooting 20 guage heavy load with a hardcast would be neat too!
    Soldier of God, sixgun junky, Retired electrical lineman. My office was a 100 feet in the air, closer to God the better

  4. #84
    Slug Master
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    Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
    loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
    all alloy steel construction, tested to
    about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
    site shows testing at the Italian proof house
    of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
    working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
    O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed

    Last edited by hubel458; 11-03-2006 at 01:20 AM.

  5. #85
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    I get questions about whether the IMR 4759
    loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF.
    Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer
    slug load, expands the base of the case
    more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get
    more speed, in the same kind of
    Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us
    for sure what we have wrought..Ed.

  6. #86
    Slug Master
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    am working on
    scaling up falling block to handle
    700NE, 600Ne. 12ga FH, etc.We wanted to go to bigger 4bore size copy of Wickcliffe
    but the short hammer carried on the breech
    is too light to fire big primers.and hammer spring can't be made heavier either.So I am
    drawing one scaled up to 12ga and 700NE size.
    If used with our 12ga FH case will have to have
    primer bushing........
    SO- today the boy and I set up a mill.
    And we along with old machinist guy couple miles away will build a model scaled up with
    basic action and breech block designed to work with lever,toggle link. 1.25" barrel thread.

    And for the 4bore size falling block, the
    HSFB, 1.5 barrel thread, 2' wide action we
    will combine a little from Stevens 44 1/2,
    Ruger #1, Win 85, Sharps highpower falling
    block. The Wickcliff copies a lot in its breech
    from the Stevens.We will use a big hammer in the
    rear of action with heavy springs,
    to fire big primers. Half cock safety.Those
    we appropriated from other break actions and
    along with trigger and a lever are on
    the way from
    Gun Parts.Ed.

  7. #87
    Slug Master
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    Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
    Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
    Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
    crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
    90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
    Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
    Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
    tested with transducer test ing setup,
    in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
    Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of
    my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr,
    that I figured with my math would
    have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
    OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
    Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
    the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
    that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
    will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
    will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
    or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
    I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
    than our 4759 loads.Ed

  8. #88
    Slug Master
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    Buckhammer 3 "factory loads are 15k psi.
    A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad,
    a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about
    2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on
    pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case
    and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi,
    and work through modern guns.Another load tested with
    same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place
    was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have
    to put in my max loads, but go down a
    little and use in modern guns that
    are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet
    you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300
    to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed

  9. #89
    Slug Master
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    Here is picture of case fired 25 times,
    in my 700HE test barrel, to show you
    how cases stretch and thinout from
    repeated firings of high pressure loads.
    You can see where it is thinning just
    above the belt. Half of the loads were
    high pressure loads. Regular 10,000 ft
    lb loads wouldn't stretch cases at all.
    This is made from bmg brass like our
    12GA FH. 700 is belted and 12ga has rim.Ed


  10. #90
    Slug Master
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    Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
    to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
    One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
    handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
    for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
    chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
    converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
    a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
    Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
    are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
    of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
    Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear extractor.A 788 Rem
    may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
    For repeater action, Open mag
    well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
    12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
    the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
    as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.

  11. #91
    Slug Master
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    I have also found that the rear locking lug
    idea will work with an Enfield, and it would
    long enough for our long case with little
    work. Work long case as singleshot.
    Work as single stack repeater with 3" 12ga.
    The bolt handle base would be one lug, and is quite large, which would be stronger than
    goose guns built same way.The
    left locking lug woud get a bite out on
    its end if front was bored out to .900,
    tp allow feeding of 12ga case.
    But I found a way to add extra lug in the back by opening sight recess that is in rear bridge
    down through to bolt raceway, mill groove on left for lug to turn into that
    opening and mill square recess into bolt and add lug on left.Result 2.5 lugs, with enough
    strength to hold 30k plus loads easily.
    Ream out front of action. Barrel threads are
    as big as Savage, little more than Mauser.
    Face off front of bolt flat.Add pin in ejector
    cutout to support case opposite extractor.
    The original lugs will guide for feeding.
    Screw in heavy 12ga rifled barrel.By the way
    would work for 700NE,My 700HE by keeping
    pressures moderate. Could handle 600Ne,
    full pressure. Ed

  12. #92
    Banned BluesBear's Avatar
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    Okay here's another "what-if".

    Based on their experimentation of adding a rimmed head to a modified .50 case it seems to me that it would be quite easy to create a wildcat 12 gauge rimless cartridge based on a necked-up/blown-out .50 BMG case. Call it the 12 gauge Browning Rimless or the 19mm Browning Shotgun.

    It also seems to me that it would be possible to then install a 12 gauge Browning Rimless barrel on a .50 BMG rifle and in essence have a convertable rifle/shotgun unit since the bolt head would be the same.

    Since the barrel is removed from the Barrett for normal takedown it seems to me that a second shotgun barrel would be easy to install.

    If you could get the Barrett to function in semi-auto mode it seems to me that a 20" barreled, 12 gauge, M82 Barret would be the ultimate "Rocdblocker" type shotgun.

  13. #93
    Slug Master
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    When Rob made his 700 BMG Imp, he didn't have
    very much shoulder to headspace on.If you went from
    700 up to .729(12ga), a shoulder to headspace
    on would be gone. If you managed a case with small
    shoulder it wouldn't be straight to use with shot
    like our 12GA FH case can.My regular belted
    full length 700 HE will work with same boltface as a
    50 BMG. Another reason we made 12GA FH with 12ga base
    size, rim included, is to be able to call it a legal
    12ga, as chamber would fire shorter 12ga cases.
    Like a 3.5 inch 12ga will fire 2.75" and 3" inch.
    Our will fire shorter also.Ed

  14. #94
    Banned BluesBear's Avatar
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    Of course the 19mm Browning would have to headspace on the mouth like all other straight-sided, rimless cartridges do.

    For bolt action guns it could me marketed that with a simple bolt change, standard 12 gauge ammunition could be fired.

    For Topper style guns (ouch!) an extractor could be designed that would work with both rimmed and rimless cases.
    Probably would work with falling block actions as well.

  15. #95
    Slug Master
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    Problem with headspacing on mouth is heavier loads cases
    stretch and trimming is a pain. I made my 12GA FH
    and my 700HE and other long wildcats with chambers
    .050 long so that wouldn't be problem.Bolts are easiest
    to go back and forth.We have one fellow who is
    putting 12GA Fh in AR50 upper, so he can change bolt
    and barrel and go back to 50BMG.Ed

  16. #96
    Banned BluesBear's Avatar
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    Straigh walled cases don't suffer from as much stretching problems as bottlenecked ones do.
    Usually a straight walled case will stretch to the maximum length of the chamber and then go no further.

    Unless the chamber is loose enough to allow it to overly expand and then get excessively worked in the sizing die.

    I've reloaded .45 Winchester Magnum cases 20-25 times and not had to trim them.
    And the .45WM, at 50,000 PSI, is a porportionately higher pressure cartridge than the 19mm Browning loadings I'm envisioning.

  17. #97
    Slug Master
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    Here is picture of top part of the
    first scale-up model, next to smaller
    Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
    trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
    It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
    etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
    mill table to do the machining.Next machining
    will be the hole and slot down through the
    action for breech block and hammer to
    slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
    get some tooling.I had none when we set up
    vertical mill, and have to get more.The
    action model also will be narrowed up when
    finished, and contoured to look as good
    as the Wickcliffe.Ed.


  18. #98
    Slug Master
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    Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
    in a temperary chamber to see if
    hammer with beefed up spring would fire
    bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
    of the action so 12ga cases would feed
    into the action and temp chamber
    They fired ok. Bur the extra stiff spring
    makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
    on that.The original Wickcliffe
    action that we want to scale up is tall
    enough so that when breech block is
    lowered the block clears the bottom
    a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
    So in the scale up we need to just add a
    a little width for wider breech block,
    and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
    sides thick for strength.Ed

  19. #99
    Slug Master
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    In response to guys who can't find 4759
    we will test powders in the same speed range.
    Tested 2 fast stick powders, 4198 and 4227.
    Both didn't ignite good with small primers
    in plastic cases. Another I plan on trying
    VV110, when I find some. It is bulkier
    and slight chance may work like 4759. Ed

  20. #100
    Boolit Master
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    WOW!

    Hey Ed:

    IF you'd spend as much time with your machining and experimenting
    as you do typing on the 'puter, you'd get things done a whole lot
    quicker. hehe!!

    What's the weight of a .715" round ball?

    How do/would they work in 12ga hulls for hogs??

    Great post, enjoyed reading the whole thing in one sitting.
    George so I can:

    Gun Control is NOT About Guns!
    It's about CONTROL!
    Join the NRA Today

    Lm: NRA, NAHC, NAFC, N***/WS

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check