12GA FH Slug Tester --

[cpileri]

thx sir

[hubel458]

Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super
sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple
middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,
which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the
sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a
special made hollowed out long roll crimper.

Getting some more interest in our 585HE.
An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm
PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5
cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases
being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.
And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr
spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.
Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place
where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.

I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the
actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .
Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on
inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like
Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice
like me can do.....

A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr
to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back..
The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,
for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,
and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed

　
　

[longbow]

Ed:

You never cease to amaze me! That is one impressive looking cartridge and bullet.

Merry Christmas.

Longbow

[jmort]

He is the ne plus ultra of power. 15,672 ft lbs, and he has had loads north of that, way north of that as I recall.

[hubel458]

For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light
bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about
mach 4 with a top load..

Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a
bunch of them and so does McGowen.

　
Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a
hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would
work in our 12ga sabot..

But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.
Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out.

Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a
way to keep them together group wise.Ed
　

[cpileri]

is that a screw through the balls?
how did they shoot? pattern? penetrate?
C-

[hubel458]

Went through 4'' plank, never slowed, stayed together.

Yes that is screw through them.A lot of work.

Be better to epoxy 2 balls into the wadcup, for

smoothbore act like the other slugs with a tail.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the
recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,





Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in a 12ga dangerous
game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells it


.


There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;
Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up
for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the
first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can
go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..


https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos




Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the
style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish.







Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.





And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1...ED

[hubel458]

The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by
target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,
necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way
before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.


One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,
was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.


They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.
Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as
shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
180gr under a 750gr'.


We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did
big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but
maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck,
if they could have found couple barrels full.


But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,
multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or
falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
and moderate loads, last forever..


For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite
gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.
To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,
wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.


Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed

[hubel458]

Here are couple 24ga FHs in break actions, a CBC with monoblocked
a 585 barrel into, and a guys NEF he had a 585 barrel monoblocked in.
The 585 barrels are perfect fit for 24ga and 585 Minie Bullets
are a perfect for barrel and 24ga case fit.










Another matter--- I know it seems like I'm begging for help when
I ask guys on the net for help at times. . But I really am in a bind.


That is truth, Our small income disappeared from our farms truck
garden business as my my knees are shot and can't hardly
walk, I can't do field work, etc. And the wife's lung condition
got so bad she can't work, nearly invalid. We need extra money to try
to keep our health fixed up and pay bunch of back bills and utilities.
As well as needed to pay for traveling to doctors, treatments,drugs, etc.


Could you all maybe get together with others on these forums
and kinda take up a collection to help get me out of my troubles and
debt. Like 10 or so bucks each put into my paypal account as gifts.
And if you want to mail it, use email below to contact me to get you
my mailing address.


The Paypal email is je@gunownerstv.com


Best Regards- Ed


PS-- I really need help. Not a astronomocal amount, but fairly fast.
We never made anything on the 12ga FH, etc, work and research.
The little coming from sale of our 585 brass, dies,
barrels, etc, we try to pay to the places, where the money
is owed, for getting them made..Ed

[Hogtamer]

Prayer (and a contribution) on the way Ed.

[hubel458]

Thanks- Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.
Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.





Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga
sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in
sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in
sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die
and punch it back out.







And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,
You know we like to use the rifle, IE slower than shotgun, powders.
We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and RE17 for others where
we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large
diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.
But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17
type, when cold, that has a speed between IMR 4759 and the RE17.
RE17 uses different process to put the deterrents in the powder to control
speeds, which allows much easier ignition, compared to big majority of rifle
powders with all the deterrent on the outside.


There are some out there made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes
RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available
for those in UK and Europe, They are called RS 40, about same speed
as RE12, RS 50 & 52, same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17.
Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there,
that Nitrochemie made..


Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.
I'd like to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or V V TR140
into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work. Ed

[hubel458]

We got guys wildcatting our 585HE case,







Here is picture of that 375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from.
He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458.
There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.





Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock.
He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt.





We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are
using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions
made similar, just a newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter
and a 1.60" diameter receivers.


And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has
these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with
another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single
stack, center feed, magazine..He has one of our 585 HE reamers on hand,
we have barrels....Ed

[OnHoPr]

I just had a thought Ed, you know if your wildcat ever make mainstream I think I would get stock in the powder companies.

[hubel458]

Good idea, and also most loads for moderate speeds can use the surplus powders

that are less cost and in big supply. We'll help use them up,

do more shooting.There are guys with tons of surplus to sell.Ed.

[hubel458]

Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak,


Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double
as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than
the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.
Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around





Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny type.








The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.


About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs. Easier just use one being added on for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed

[hubel458]

A maybe--- high speed 20ga full size, HP 280gr light alloy, pointed projectile, from
Cutting Edge Bullets. If we could get them be super great in 20ga brass cases.
One company is loading it in special molded plastic case to a muzzle velocity
of 2200fps out of a 26 inch 20 gauge rifled test barrel. They may have
the supply of those particular bullets tied up. They can get the speed
due to light weight.

Concept would do for 12ga at 380 gr. Guys trying light plastic coated slugs,
zinc slugs that are lighter than lead , maybe make pointed ones and use idea
to lock them in a special molded case, and of course in brass. Get same
high speeds.


They load with about 2/3 of 280gr pointed projectile sticking out the front end
of a new pressure molded one piece plastic case; with a steel base cup
The case is about 2.2 inches long . Loaded length is about 2.8"
Now using this bullet and say the aluminum core 12ga jacketed ones that BPI
sells is great in brass, but can't roll crimp the easiest and best in plastic,
due to no wadcutter type shoulder to crimp to. So guys can roll crimp with cards
over them or a fold crimp , but the industry won't do that with slugs or sabots.
So they are trying a pressure molded special case for the CEB
that locks on to it without a crimp.

About using RS brand rifle powders made by Nitrochemi mentioned above,
that are like the RE 17 they make for Alliant to ship here..
The concept of using rifle powders that can be used with shotgun primers in
large diameter cases allows the use of more and more speed and is like
what we do using 4759 and the RE 17. We are always looking for easy
to ignite powders of the RE17 type that has a speed between those two.


Main reason besides speed, is due to their slower ignition time to peak
pressures, we have much less pressure changes when components are
changed, cases changed, which is a critical factor for reloading using the much,
much, faster shotgun powders.They can be worked with to get loads figured out
without a 6 inch diameter test gun in a bunker with 50 ft string on the trigger.



Other info, we got experimenters cutting our 585HE to about 2.17", about 45-70
length, to see if those interested can use them in bigger lever actions,
that come in 45-70. The 45-70 rim is .608", base only .500"
and our rim and belt is .654" , but base is .634". 60% bigger, so we
think actions can be made that much bigger inside And base is third
bigger cross section than 50 Alaskan at .553", guys put in lever guns.
Make a real hairy lever gun. It being rimless case allows more diameter than
a short fat rimmed case, in a lever gun for more powder capacity and power
at moderate peak pressures.Called 585 Big Bore --585 BB
and cases already stamped. Ed

[hubel458]

Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by
a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comb
stock, handles recoil great.Neat looking work... Ed







About our 2.17" 585 BB case for lever guns, pistols, etc,.
It is made from our 585 case cut back to 2.17" long.
With loaded length of about 2.8" work in lever guns, etc.
Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.
One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with
Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,
to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case
that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet.
Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.
Or rolling block rifles and pistols...Gonna try one in 1887.
Got first one in one of our guys Greener GP for testing..


In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.
By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....
Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site.







Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.
On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down
and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of
weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.
Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight
like a compact UTG sight...Ed

[stripercrazy]

best of luck Ed, hope everything works out ok.....Ed