12GA FH Slug Tester --

[hubel458]

I don't think we'll have problems with hopped up shotgun slug
ammo, as all the manufacturers are loading hotter and faster and
many game departments are pushing shotgun slug use over rifle
cartridge use in built up areas for safety reasons. And even though a
blunter shotgun slug or sabot slug is hopped up its design won't
let it carry extreme distances, not even as far as a 22 long, if it is
elevated and misses the target. And the guy doing the 700 ***
is getting it a sporting use exemption, but being such a short case
still won't do any more than a 3.5" RMC 12ga brass with a slug.
But that is the rules and the rules work exempting shotgun calibers
as they are listed in the back of the cartridges of the world book,
and allowing others to get over 50cal rifle stuff exempted. And if they ban
firearm applications like streetsweeper, it really isn't banned, you just
pass background test and pay 200 bucks.And you can own all
of them you want. Now I'm not in favor of the 200bucks,
should be 20, but if checks keep real actual super dangerous
weapons out of the hands on mentally disturbed monsters
that is fine with me. Ed

[Willbird]

All it takes is ONE nitwit. Our 3 shot rule in Ohio stems from ONE individual who carelessly launched a whole pocket full of 12 gauge slugs at a running deer and his 4th or 5th shot killed a person on an adjacent property. And just last year some moron unloaded his muzzle loader by firing it in the air at a 45 degree angle and killed an Amish girl. That bullet as I recall went something like 1/2 a mile before it struck her in the head and killed her. Point is, as always, be aware of the target and what lays beyond.

[Willbird]

All it takes is ONE nitwit. Our 3 shot rule in Ohio stems from ONE individual who carelessly launched a whole pocket full of 12 gauge slugs at a running deer and his 4th or 5th shot killed a person on an adjacent property. And just last year some moron unloaded his muzzle loader by firing it in the air at a 45 degree angle and killed an Amish girl. That bullet as I recall went something like 1/2 a mile before it struck her in the head and killed her. Point is, as always, be aware of the target and what lays beyond.

If that had been a "modern" smokeless muzzle loader shooting a 400 grain bullet 2700 fps, that has a .7 BC something might have gotten cut off for sticking up.

[hubel458]

Tragedies happen when people are careless, but in comparison
with the muzzleloader mentioned, most rifles with their pointed
or semi-pointed bullets can travel 3-4 times as far.I gave some guys
hell couple years ago for wanting to sight guns in with target set on
top of a rise, where downrange couple miles were some houses.
They now know better. 3 most important gun rules, be sure of
your target, watch your muzzle, and don't have accidental discharges.ED

[hubel458]

In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but
enough to find goos combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. Going over 2000 fps.
Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..





Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
and the Magtech 199 shown above.



Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

[txnative1951]

Ed... Glad to see you over here also. I got banned from TheHighRoad.org for my view that the 2nd Amendment was intended to be absolute by the Founding Fathers, just like religious freedom. Oh well...

Your mentioning of SEE over there got me to thinking... I wonder what would be the maximum pressure that could be developed in a closed chamber (where both ends were blocked) for a given quantity of powder. From what I've read, all powders of a similar type are going to produce the same amount of energy if you ignite them. The difference is the retardants that are added to the powder to slow down the burn rate. If you are not concerned with the burn rate, but only the amount of gas produced when powders are converted from solid to gas, it would seem that you could calculate the maximum pressure that *could* be generated and thus the barrel thickness that would be necessary to contain that gas, even if it generated the gas in an explosion instead of a controlled burn. Assuming that Barlow's Formula is the correct one for determining the strength of a tube in this case and a 40,000 psi yield strength on the alloy of the barrel, a 1.2" OD barrel with a .73" ID should be able to withstand 18,800 psi with a safety factor of 1. Now, if you are using a more modern alloy and have a 100,000 psi yield strength, it goes up to 47,000 psi. And changing that to a 2" OD gives you 127,000 psi. Purely academic, of course, but it could give someone an idea of the absolute wost case scenario. From a practical matter though, I have to think that even if the lead bullet was completely wedged into the barrel so that it could not move, you would get a blow through of it before you got a destruction of a barrel that was this thick, although the speed at which the pressure increased might have an effect upon the results.

[hubel458]

Those barrel strengths relative to the psi they can hold
using the formula are accurate for progressive burning powder.
When you have SEE event the speed of the explosion can
be up to 5-6 times the speed of progressive burning powder,
so the speed of the wavefront makes regular thickness barrels
quite vulnerable.Some 50cal action barrels are 2 inches in
diameter at the first foot or two but if they have SEE event in a
bmg case, that still can blow up those barrels if the max
explosion speeds occur. Just like high explosives in a IED can
push a thick copper plate so fast it goes through thick armour.Ed

[txnative1951]

Interesting... Sounds like it's time to switch to the 4" OD barrel... 327,000 psi...

I have to think that if someone was considering a 4" OD barrel for a 12-gauge, it truly would be the 12-gauge From Hell...

"Anything worth engineering is worth OVER-engineering"

[hubel458]

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.



I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
unneeded front of the sear and the action metal above, giving
room to the back for cases that are 3.9" overall loaded length.



Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going
to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder
and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World set this one up



Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
like slower than shotgun powder RE-17 does.. It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the
deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
peak pressurs down.Ed

[txnative1951]

How many grains of powder could you get in a 12-gauge shell if you put no bullet in it?

[hubel458]

In a 3.5" plastic case I can get 350 grains of heavy
powder like RE17, RE33. With lighter 4759 powder
I can get 270gr.Lot of room in the long cases.Ed

[txnative1951]

In a 3.5" plastic case I can get 350 grains of heavy
powder like RE17, RE33. With lighter 4759 powder
I can get 270gr.Lot of room in the long cases.Ed

So, you could get more powder than is normally used in a .50BMG loading. At least theoretically it would be possible to design a gun where the bullet was placed in the barrel manually and the 12-gauge shell just contained powder. The 12-gauge shell would act like the powder bag and primer on a large cannon.

[firefly1957]

Yes but a plastic shell will not survive high pressures brass will . You also may note that the work done is proportional to the area of the bore so the same pressure curve will give more velocity with a larger bore giving a edge to the 12 ga. over a 50 caliber. Then the poor ballistics of a bigger slug will effect down range performance so a sabot is useful to launch the smaller than bore size projectile but then you need to stabilize that bullet. Another factor with the 12 Ga FH is they operate at lower pressures than the 50 BMG reducing the work available some.

[hubel458]

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. In picture on right is factory SPW.



Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this
12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug
in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.





Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed




As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real
speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

[TheGrimReaper]

I love it!!!

[longbow]

Never seen those thick wads. Where did you get them?

I wouldn't mind trying that one. Still working with smoothbores.

On another note. Ed do you have pressure tested loads that are available for those of us without pressure testing equipment? If not, you should put a manual together and market it. Mark me down for one!

Longbow

[hubel458]

The 12ga MZ wads I got at gunstore in black powder area.
They are listed as for steel shot in muzzle loaders.
All of our loads in plastic cases are at max magnum 12ga 3.5"
levels, or less, about 14,700psi max. RMC Brass shotgun case
loads will be about 1/3 higher in modern rifled barrels.
Like Savage bolt guns. And add on rifled in Mossys and 870s, etc
For bull barrel guns the RMC brass loads are about 2/3 more than the plastic loads. Like NEF Ultra.And our add on heavy barrels.Ed

[hubel458]

First picture is of nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.



Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on here, 12ga lead
roundball with section of copper tube, with wads inside, bpgs seal on the
bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.



Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4
ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
Just glue top card in.Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie
slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going
over 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.



Next is a Mossy 390 with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed

[longbow]

That round ball slug looks good Ed! What diameter is the tube? I am guessing this is a "bore size" slug so not fitting into a shotcup?

I was hoping to get out and shoot mine this weekend but I got nailed with a nasty winter cold and was feeling pretty poorly. Getting over it now so next weekend I will give them a go.

I will be interested in seeing how yours do too so please keep us posted.

Longbow

[hubel458]

That tube is just the only piece I had in drawer . same with one lead ball ..
ball is ..725" -- tube is .705", seal BPGS, got 20ga wads inside.
Next month will check on cost and OD sizes of stiff solder copper tubes
and regular copper tubing...It is long, made for smooth bores as the
soft ball would lead up rifling.
WE got a bad blizzard here also. I gonna set it out for couple weeks.Ed