12GA FH Slug Tester --

[hubel458]

Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar.
It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.



Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE
cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.
He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000
with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first
shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,
so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.
Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

This case can be used in different style guns.,
Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.
Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.
Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here
is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,
we just got done.




I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,
etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real
tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we
fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted
ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,
and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..
Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp
what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,
they don't need a special holder.

In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are
in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,
which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..
The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.
He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads
that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing
these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime
we get money built up for an order..Ed

[hubel458]

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.





Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
Last, 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220 20ga,
with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets. Ed

[hubel458]

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.





Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
Last, 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220 20ga,
with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets. Ed

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Ed, good to see you, doing what you do best, scare me with your big guns!
Now, I like the bullet in Commander wad 4 th from the left in your picture.
I just hope it does not weigh a ton, remember I'm the man from Chicken camp!
Indeed a picture is worth a thousand words!
Hope to see you in person one day!
Regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.BlazingSabots.com
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[hubel458]

Ajay that 4th one is called a Lyman old style about 490 gr.
And thank you for all the 20ga work you've done. Greatest
boon to 20ga slug reloaders. Ed

[longbow]

Both you guys are amazing! I always enjoy your posts.

Entertaining and informative to say the least!

I always look forward to seeing posts by VdoMemorie and hubel458. Keep up the good work.

Longbow

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning Great Mr. Ed & Longbow, that kind of positive comments coming from both of you, I'm Honored and am very lucky to be associated with this wonderful family of slug shooters!
Warmest Regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.BlazingSabots.com
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[jmort]

I have to thank both Ed and Ajay for inspiring me. I first found Ed's thread and then Ajay's. So it appears that you will not have a lot of wads/sabots to sell at this point? Hopefully you will get more availability. Thanks

[hubel458]

WE don't have the 12ga Accutip style sabot we designed yet , but they
are supposed to be setting up the equipment to get started.
But if you want to try 20 ga, get NEF heavy barrel or Sav 220, and you can get BPI
20 GA Commander wads and buy or cast 58cal slugs and go to shooting.
Slugs to use are .575" to .578". And Ajay has packages of 20 ga slug and wad
combinations with instructions that he''ll be selling.
There is all the info that Ajay has and if you are not into casting, you can buy
various 58 cal slug and the wads ready to load from Ajay..Ed

[jmort]

I waiting for the 12 gauge components. Will all due respect to Ajay, I'm liking the 12 gauge.

[hubel458]

Shot cast 575 Minie in 20 ga Commander wad at 1900 in smooth
bore single heavy barrel 20, at 30 yds, got 6" group for 4 shots.

First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.



Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
12ga barrel for it..



Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
with putting on a thumbhole stock.



Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed

[Willbird]

Wondering if you have any idea what the highest chamber pressure is a 209 primer will work with ?

[firefly1957]

I intentionally blew up a Siamese Mauser by loading the case with Bullseye powder because i had no cases i used a 7.62 X 54 Russian case and sized it in the chamber then drilled the Berdan primer out and placed a WW 209 primer in it. The case gave at the primer and destroyed the action, Barrel and bolt (minus the extractor) were fine and in place. The primer held all that pressure and was bent a bit by the gas blow by. Looking the gun over i wonder if the case had not failed if the gun would have survived a full charge of Bullseye. This was a gun of wartime production and if i had known what i do today it would have got a new stock and a 45-70 barrel instead of blown up!

[hubel458]

I've used shotgun primers at 45,000 psi in brass 12ga cases
we made from bmg brass and bushed in primer and no trouble.
I'm using them in 8 and 4 bore brass cases with starter powder and get
cases to about 35k, regular loads..
Bullseye in too large amount, which isn't much. may blow up any gun.
I don't even use it for starter powder in my 4bore loads,
i use Blue Dot. Will do same in the 2 bore when it is done.Ed

[Willbird]

Thanks for the info, I'm going to use them to light off a smokeless muzzle loader...people speak of seeing "pressure signs" ad the primer, and pondering if the 209 primer is the "weak point". Most breech plug designs I doubt the primer ever sees full pressure. I thought of altering a 30-30 case and working up to full pressure to see how the primer affected the pressure....but then I recalled the shotguns from hell and figured they had already "been there" hehe. The muzzle loader boys use SR4759 or N110 as a faster powder to duplex with slower powders.

[longbow]

Ed:

Maybe a little off topic but I was just wondering about your use of modified military brass cases for your tests.

I thought anything over 50 cal. in rifled barrel was considered a "destructive device" unless it was originally manufactured for shotgun or sporting rifle.

Not trying to start anything, just curious about the rules and regulations.

There isn't a lot of rifled shotgun shooting I am aware of in Canada but then there are not many areas restricted to shotgun and muzzleloader hunting in Canada either (no handgun hunting here!). I would have to check but it seems to me even .50 BMG was not allowed here for some time. Not sure about custom shotgun modifications and "wildcat" type loads using modified non shotgun cartridges.

In any case, I always enjoy your posts along with Ajays and turbo1889. You guys have provided a great deal if good info and entertaining reading.

I am still messing about with round ball loads and Brenneke style slugs at "normal" slug loads and velocities in smoothbores. Not in your league at all. Maybe one day!

Longbow

[hubel458]

AS long as it is a shotgun case that fits in a standard straight sided
shotgun chamber in the US it is considered a shotgun shell.
Under GCA laws, all shotgun calibers are exempt from the over
50cal DD rules, It don't make any difference how cases are made,
drawn, machined, turned, extruded, by punch press or lathe, etc, what they
are made out of, paper, plastic, steel, brass, aluminum, etc as long
as they go in shotgun caliber chambers, Don't matter how long, 2.75",
3.00", 3.5", 4.0", etc. If you make a shotgun chamber for our 12gaFH
it is legal as long as any other shorter 12ga case fires in the chamber.
There is 5 nominal lengths of cases that fires in my 12gaFH long chamber.
And a full backbored 12ga the chamber size is full length to the front
of barrel, making a 30 inch chamber for really long case if you want.
And once a bmg brass case has 12ga rim on it and is straightened out
it ain't bmg no more it only goes in 12ga chamber.
We just made it for sporting use.If you scraped it and
melted it and sent the cast brass rod to RMC, to make 12ga brass case is it ok....

Now you can't take 37mm and neck it to 12ga and have an exempt
12ga caliber case, you have big bore case over 50cal.... that you can get a
sporting use exemption for if you want , like I did for my 700HE, and 585HE and
many others have done for their over 50cal cases..
Just apply and get the sporting exemption. But straight sided shotgun
cases are all exempt in the law..Ed

[longbow]

Okay. Thanks Ed. I was just curious about it as I have read some comments that made me wonder just what was and wasn't legal.

So if it fits a "shotgun" chamber it is okay but if it is for over .50 cal rifle it is not? Seems to me the .700*** thread had some questions as to legality.

Anyway, I figured you knew what you were about so could answer the question. And so you did.

Thanks.

Longbow

[Willbird]

The street sweepers fell under the exemption until they started to draw attention, then the ATF shut off the sporting use exemption for them and made them DD. Shotguns from hell really do not have a huge following yet...if they started to draw attention then things that stick up seem to get cut off ....but it would not be nearly as simple to say they are not "sporting".

[longbow]

As it turns out, I ran into one of Ed's reports on another site and he answered the same question for someone else.

I have to say that I am not sure of the legalities in Canada. Regular shotguns and ammunition are perfectly legal but I am not sure about "deviations" or custom made ammunition based on other cartridges. I suspect that unless they become commonplace and seem "threatening" or "stick up" as Willbird says, then they would indeed get attention and action from bureaucrats.

Longbow