12GA FH Slug Tester --

[longbow]

I have tried attaching all sorts of base wads to slugs and so far have been largely unsuccessful.

Any plastic gas seal/cushion legs I have tried are too fragile. I thought I had a good one with a steel shot wad as it appeared to be pretty similar to the cushion leg on the Gualandi DGS slug but they failed and after shooting comparison with a DGS showed that the DGS cushion leg and gas seal were quite a bit thicker and tougher.

I will be very interested if someone find one that works.

In the mean time, I will be looking for some really heavy felt to try punching out felt wads with screw holes in them for slugs I cast with a central hole for the screw Brenneke style.

I am having another test run of my ribbed hollow base slugs this week. This round has a thickened skirt to resist deformation on firing but I am thinking a solid with attached basewad is the way to go.

By the way Ed, I don't know how you find the time to do so much and post so much information but I am glad you make the time. This is really interesting!

Thanks,
Longbow

[peter nap]

The slug has peg on the back to hold the base onto the slug. I hope
you can cast them that way or leave a hole and screw on the base.
Where did you find the white sabot part.

I'm using these wads from BPI Ed.



They appear to be the same thing used on the US Slug

I'm just cutting the petals off of a WAA wad and slipping them between the slug and hull when loading. They rest on the ledge of the wad.

I have also started playing with the Lyman Sabot slugs inverted and glued to the wad. (Same breakaway petal arrangment)

After roll crimping, I'm hot gluing a .45 round ball in the cavity. Gives me about 650 grains. 45 was all I had on hand but Ajay tried one a little larger and got over 700 grains. I don't know if he's shot hi yet but mine shoot fairly well and expand like crazy.

[peter nap]

Here's the cut off shotcup


The Petals still in a complete circle



Invert the shotcup so the gas seal is on TOP and glue the slug in



A BPI gas seal goes under the inverted wad.



Cut one side of the Petal ring. This is so the ring will come off easily. You can cut both if you want and it may be a little more accurate.



Load them like a one piece wad



After the roll crimp (Not shown here) you can add the ball to the hollow or just leace as a massive hollow point.

[longbow]

peter nap:

Have you had any problems with glue failure? Just wondering because I have found hot melt to shear at the bond with the slug in some cases. I started drilling a small hole and installing a screw part way in then hot melt so the wad couldn't separate even if the glue failed.

And a comment on the wad petals. I tried using wad petals as shims for an undersize Brenneke style slug. That didn't go so well. I am not sure exactly what happened but I suspect the petals slipped and got wedged between the attached basewad and barrel because recoil was fierce and the case stuck in the chamber. I didn't shoot any more of those.

In your case maybe not such an issue as the plastic wad may give enough if this happens but I was using stacked nitro card wads so a solid basewad.

Anyway, be careful!

How are you finding accuracy with the reversed slug? I know a fellow who is currently shooting Rapine 730550 slugs reversed through a rifled choke tube and they are doing better than when shot nose forward.

Longbow

[peter nap]

There are still a lot of things to work out longbow. The glue is holding pretty well. If you have ever used Epoxy rivets, try it on the slug. Just use a small ball point dremil bit on the slug and make a hole larger inside than the entrance hole. Mix epoxy (I use West System 3 (because I have ten gallons of it) with a thickener and drill a small hole in the wad under the one in the slug. slather the base of the slug and get plenty in the hole you drilled. It will ooze out of the wad hole. Use your finger to flatten it and you have a rivet.

So far, it's held. Hot glue did not and neither did fletchtite.

I haven't had any problem with the petals jamming.

If I keep the velocity up, I really don't need the glued on wad. It doesn't become unstable until it slows down at about 50 yards but....I'm not really shooting hot loads either. I think it will to 100 yards if I get around 110 grains of the RE17 in it.

I'll have to either cut the cushion off or leave the gas seal out to do it.

[turbo1889]

Update - R17 Slug Loads for Un-Modified Bull Barrel 20ga. Guns:

Okay, so just letting you guys know that for a 1-oz weight full bore solid 20ga. slug 75 grains is your minimum charge and 100 grains is your max charge with Reloader-17 powder in a 3" 20ga. hull, roll crimped, and with a Fed-209-A primer. For a wad column I used a Fed. 20S1 wad with the petals cut off and a single 20ga. nitro card on top of that and under the slug. You can use a lower charge then 75 grains all the way down to the 60 grains Ed Hubel originally recommended as a start load but the powder burns different at that low of a charge and it makes a different sound when the gun goes off, the recoil is significantly less, and there is a lot more powder junk in the barrel. Long story short I don't think it burns right at charges less then 75 grains in this set-up so I think that is what the minimum load should be.



As the charge is increased and you roll crimp the hull you start compressing the coiled cushion section on the Fed. 20S1 wad more and more until a maximum load leaves you with a completely compressed cushion section and a very short roll crimp. They work darn well too. I've taken one deer so far this season and it was with one of these loads at the maximum charge of 100 grains. It was a large bodied 3x4 point whitetail buck in river bottom below my place (haven’t had time to really hunt anywhere else). Shot was long - 160+ yards if my pacing it off was anywhere near correct. Broad side shot aimed for his front shoulders so he would drop where you stood but hit about six inches to the right and further back on his body and the slug went right behind his shoulder and was about 8 inches high compared to where I wanted it to hit (figured the drop would be less then my previous loads at that range but didn't figure it would be that much less). Anyway it was a lungs only shot so he ran a hundred yards before you dropped. Punched a hole clean through and on the exit side it hit one of the rib bones and punched a 3/4 of a circle in it that looks like it was cut with a CNC high pressure water stream cutter.

I don't know what the muzzle velocity is but it's high - it probably won't be till after the holidays that I have the time to burn to drag out the Crony to the range and do some velocity measurement for this load and a lot of other slug loads that I need to check but I'll update again when I do.




Previous post history on this subject:

Hey, Hubel, my GF has been loading up some 12ga. loads using your R-17 load data and it got me wondering. You think that the R-17 would work well in the 20ga. for full-bore solid slugs out of a factory 20ga. NEF-USH as well.

I have a custom mold that drops 20ga. 1-oz. full bore solids:



I started out loading them with Blue Dot, then I went to STEEL, and finally to 2400 in order to produce progressively more powerful loads while still staying within safe pressures by using progressively slower burning powders. I was thinking about trying R-7 next since I've had good luck with it with 410 slug loads but those R-17 loads you suggested and my GF has been loading seem to be really friendly to the hulls. Except for the roll crimp portion they still look like once-fired hulls after several loadings. Since 20ga. usually uses slightly slower powders then 12ga. I would think that if it's fast enough to work for 12ga. it should probably work for 20ga. as well.

What would you suggest for a start load charge? I will just work it up slowly until I either run out of powder space or I start getting sticky extraction and then back off to the point before it got sticky. Just need a start point because I am completely unfamiliar with this powder and this will be the first time I will be using it.

The RE17 will be great for 20ga.You could start at 60gr, and probably
go all the way to full loads with a seal and minimum 1/4" cushion wad.
If a regular shotgun barrel you still want to use a seal and cushion.
Don't use 2400 and RE7 you take a chance on misfires or hang fires. . . .

Thanks for the start point on R-17 for 20ga. Much appreciated.

And as far as your advise to not use 2400 in the 20ga. I will have to respectfully disagree. I have built and fired over a hundred slug loads using it and those loads were based on published pressure tested load data that was intended for conventional 1-1/4oz. shot loads that was used as a starting point. Now I have been using FED-209A primers exclusively (the published data also called for them) and I haven’t had any ignition problems - 2400 does produce more powerful slug loads in the 20ga. then I have been able to do with STEEL within safe pressure limits but I think I can do even better with R-17 and get more loads out of my hulls to boot.

I'll take your word for R-7 not working in the 20ga. I haven’t tried it myself - but I do know it works in the 410-bore, of course once again I've been using the hot FED-209A primers, though.

We had misfires with 2400 and RE7 in 12ga., 10ga.
Which is why I mentioned it. Now I realize that the much
smaller diameter of the 20 gauge case , nearly down to
the size of 577NE, my 585HE, accounts for the fact
that it works.In my 585 I can fire any powder no matter how
slow it is with large rifle primers, and they are 10% weaker
than shotgun primers. The RE7 should work in 20 ga or
smaller if other powders do. Keep up the good work and
let us know hoe the RE17 goes in your 20ga.ED

. . . . the R-17 works absolutely beautiful in my 20ga. Full case 3" loads with a little bit of cushion and a gas seal like you said were still extracting smooth as silk with no stickiness. Lots of muzzle flash and boom but I expected that. Those are going to be my river bottom deer hunting loads this season. Would probably work for bear and elk as well but I'm more comfortable with the 12ga. for those applications. Don't have my load book in front of me right now or I'd give you the exact charge I worked them up to. I'll probably post again later with that info.

[hubel458]

peternap-Thay inverted slug looks real wicked.
Imagine the energy transfer in game with that.

turbo-That is great, RE17 has taken a buck at 150 plus yards.

I now have a variety of 12GA FH test guns including
two Savage 210s in the lineup and 2 NEFs,and 1887Win,
and Mauser GEHA.......SO passing the first
12GA FH that I did on the Savage 210 bolt action.
Its in original Savage stock now, 28" Pacnor rifled barrel.
Stock is weighted and double thick recoil pad.
It is chambered for the original 3.85" long
12GA FH case. Uses shorter cases also.
750 plus shipping, included 4 of our long cases and
30 slugs.That is the first 12GA FH built on a Savage
and the second 12GA FH ever built. Pickup here for MI
guys ok also. Savage 210s are now 550 bucks, the heavy
rifled barrel cost me 350 bucks..Ed

[Rip]

Turbo1889,
Ed Hubel gave headsup on your immediate success.
Congratulations.
I am just starting down the 20 Gauge slug road.
Thanks for the information.
Your chrono will be interesting.
2000 fps?

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the 12ga belted cases I made to
test a few loads in. I made it from 55cal belted
Boys case. I reduced belt diameter a little and left
the base the same, which is 12ga size.In picture
first is 55cal, second expanded to .620", third
expanded to .660"(16ga), then two 12 ga ones.
Next is our 12GA FH, and then a 12ga 3.5"
plastic case.A little work in long 12ga FH chamber
with a tool for belt step and it chambers. Ed

[eye shot]

Hubel458
How many GRS. RE17 would you use behind a 525 Lyman in a 2.75 hull?

[tommygirlMT]

Hubel458
How many GRS. RE17 would you use behind a 525 Lyman in a 2.75 hull?

I don't think you can make it work in a 2-3/4" hull with R-17 because you desperatly need that extra 1/4" for powder space.

If I were going to try it though I think I'd use the Federal Gold Medal hulls because they are about the highest internal capacity 2-3/4" hulls out there.

FGM Hull, Fed. 209A Primer, 100gr. R-17, Original BPGS then 1/8" 12ga. nitro then 525 Lyman inside WAA12 shot cup with the cushion section and gas seal cut off the bottom, 12ga. Overshot Card, Tight Roll Crimp -------- That might work.

[peter nap]

I don't think you can make it work in a 2-3/4" hull with R-17 because you desperatly need that extra 1/4" for powder space.

If I were going to try it though I think I'd use the Federal Gold Medal hulls because they are about the highest internal capacity 2-3/4" hulls out there.

FGM Hull, Fed. 209A Primer, 100gr. R-17, Original BPGS then 1/8" 12ga. nitro then 525 Lyman inside WAA12 shot cup with the cushion section and gas seal cut off the bottom, 12ga. Overshot Card, Tight Roll Crimp -------- That might work.

Question for you Tommygirl. You've probablu used RE17 more than anyone else here.

Every time I think I have the RE17 ignition problem licked, it starts up again with a new loading.

Yesterday I had no cases ignite out of ten.
95 grains og RE17, tight roll crimp, CCI 209M primer, tried them in three different guns.

The primers are firing. They were pushing the bullet halfway down the barrel.

When I removed the slugs and examined the powder, a bout half was black (It was all black when loaded) and half brown, like saw dust.

When I light the powder with a match, it all burns.

This is the same can I bought new three or four weeks ago.

I talked to Alliant about it and he said he never heard of anyone using it in a 12 ga and had no idea. His only sugguesstion was try RE7 and the usual, you'll shoot your eye out.

Any idea at all what's going on.

[tommygirlMT]

1 ~ When you say tight roll crimp do you mean tight or do you mean fully compressed wad column and the roll crimp is the only thing keeping the slug from jumping out of the hull because the wading underneath it is compressed like a coiled spring?

2 ~ CCI-209-M are good but FED-209-A are better.

That first one was more of a statement then a question. And I should explain how to do that. Basically when you do a roll crimp the regular way you are limited by how much you can compress the wad column by the fact that rolled over plastic has to do the compressing. You can get around this by putting a "direct downward compression force transferer spacer (DDCFTS)" between your roll crimp head and the nose of the slug. At least that's my name for it. Sounds more complicated then it is. Basically go down to the local hard wood store and get yourself a length of 1/2" diameter hard-wood dowel rod. Then take a fine tooth little hand saw and cut yourself a length of it --- start at about a 1/4" length. Then when your roll crimp center that inside the hull and on top of the slug nose and then when you press down with the roll crimp head it will directly transfer the force to the slug and the wad column and compress them. The plastic gets rolled down at the same time to the point where you have completely compressed the wad column as much as possible and the DDCFTS is keeping the roll crimp head from going down any further. When you stop pushing down the slug will pop back upwards inside the hull until it hits the edge of the rolled in plastic. For regular full power maximum loads of R-17 it should pop back up about a 1/16 of an inch and that's it. With minimim are near minimum loads with R-17 (Why would you want reduced loads becomes the question in the back of my mind?) I imagine you would have to have almost zero backlash in there and it doesn't pop up at all but is tight at full wad column compression and stays that way. You can adjust the amount of this pop-up or backlash by adjusting the length of the DDCFTS. If you end up doing this a lot you might want to start looking to make yourself some some of a better stronger material then hardwood. I have a couple made of steel rod that one end is concave to match the curve of the slug nose and the other is convex to match the curve in the center of my Precision Reloading metal roll crimper. But simple cut lengths of a 1/2" dowel work just fine too, they will wear out though and you have to cut new ones every once in a while. Don't try using a stack of metal washers from the hardwood store they all individually slip around off center and get stuck under the roll crimped plastic while your trying to roll crimp it.

[peter nap]

Thanks TG!
I'll try it again. I did something very close to what you described using plugs cut from chioboard.

I didn't look for spring back but the crimp considerably beyond the LOA Ed gave me.

I must be getting some of them right because on some batches, I get 100%. The next one may or may not be the same.

Frustrating!

[tommygirlMT]

Would you mind telling me exactly what your using? Slug and wad column, if multiple components in order of stacking from bottom to top, and your usual finished OAL --- those three things especially.

[eye shot]

[

IMG][/IMG]
The 525 is a weight forward slug so to keep it flying right I made up non discarding sabots. I cut off the wads below the shot cup and grinde the bottom smooth and flat. Then put on slug upside down. I used ww12r, Fed.02, and green Down Range wads. The best fit was the Fed's. A 1/4" nitro card under the slug and then a X12X gas seal and a pile of RE17. Plenty of room for a good tite roll crimp. I have three slug guns that eat the pettals off the wads, they should stay on now!

I fired these yesterday at 50yds. and got nice round holes. I only got a 3" group but my scope was broke. I looked very hard and could not find any sheared off wad petals like usual with the wad right side up. The RE17 is a pleasure to shoot! I had one FTF with a WAA12R, it will not hold enough pressure for ignistion. My 525 with shot cup upside down on it with .25 nito card under slug and one X12X gas seal in a 2.75 Fiocchi primed hull with 90grs. RE17 roll crimped all fired fine.

[peter nap]

Would you mind telling me exactly what your using? Slug and wad column, if multiple components in order of stacking from bottom to top, and your usual finished OAL --- those three things especially.

I've used a lot of combos including one close to what eye shot just posted. I posted it above somewhere.

The one I just had o ignition with was a standard setup.
Lyman Sabot slug
WAA12 F14 wad with a nitro card in the bottom of the cup. Roll crimped to an LOA of 2.622.

3" BPI Multihulls
95 grains of RE17
CCI 209 M

[tommygirlMT]

two things I notice about that combination. First the Winchester wads are designed to go inside a tapered hull and if you put them in a straight walled hull (such as your BPI multihulls) the gas seal is too small for the hull and you don't get as good a seal during initial ignition (when everything is still all together inside the hull and nothing has started moving yet). With shotgun speed powders usually not a problem just add a grain or two to make up for the difference. If you look through some published load data that uses both straight and tapered wads in a straight hull you will notice that the loads with the tapered hulls call for a little more powder --- this is why. With R-17 your going to have a hard time making up the difference.

Secondly, sounds like you are using the defunct WAA12F114 wad (Winchester no longer sells it to reloaders, so it's either old stock or clones from claybuster, downrange, etc.) It also sounds like you are using it with the original cushion section left as is --- you will be hard pressed to get very good powder compression out of the weak and flimsy cushion sections on any of the WAA wads. At least good enough compression for 100% reliable R-17 powder loads.

Swap out your WAA12F114 for a Fed. 12S4 dark brown wonder wad and it will solve both problems. You should be able to leave everything else the same in the load.

[peter nap]

two things I notice about that combination. First the Winchester wads are designed to go inside a tapered hull and if you put them in a straight walled hull (such as your BPI multihulls) the gas seal is too small for the hull and you don't get as good a seal during initial ignition (when everything is still all together inside the hull and nothing has started moving yet). With shotgun speed powders usually not a problem just add a grain or two to make up for the difference. If you look through some published load data that uses both straight and tapered wads in a straight hull you will notice that the loads with the tapered hulls call for a little more powder --- this is why. With R-17 your going to have a hard time making up the difference.

Secondly, sounds like you are using the defunct WAA12F114 wad (Winchester no longer sells it to reloaders, so it's either old stock or clones from claybuster, downrange, etc.) It also sounds like you are using it with the original cushion section left as is --- you will be hard pressed to get very good powder compression out of the weak and flimsy cushion sections on any of the WAA wads. At least good enough compression for 100% reliable R-17 powder loads.

Swap out your WAA12F114 for a Fed. 12S4 dark brown wonder wad and it will solve both problems. You should be able to leave everything else the same in the load.

Thanks Tommygirl.
The wads are old stock. I've had them for years, but I've also had problems with the Red ones. The straight walled case woyld explain that. The ones I have not had problems with used fiber wads that were tighter.

I'll go get some Federal's tomorrow and try again.

Thanks again!

[hubel458]

Here is a picture of US-S brass slug after going through
3 foot of wood slabs in a bundle. It has shed its plastic
base and it went through straight without tumbling.
This one is 570 gr fired at 2200 in RMC case, from NEF.
Also in picture is one with white sabot petals off, as it
would be in flight, before hitting target.
I think same idea can do with hard cast slugs
with pin to lock to the plastic base.Ed