12GA FH Slug Tester --

[hubel458]

Aaron you could shorten Rocky Mtn brass cases and crimp in a groove,
but plastic cases are only pennies each while good brass ones are
6 bucks each. Seated and roll crimped in plastic it will still have
the same room under the slug for powder as a real short brass one.
And the pressure our slower powder loads has is ok for plastic.
And cheap brass cases like the baloon head Magtech or others
aren't any stronger than plastic, For sizing my brass cases long or
short I use some big Hollywood 12ga dies that are threaded for
my big ammomaster press. Do you use a roll crimper that fits
in a drillpress. Tha's best for plastic.Ed

[Aaron]

Ed,

What is the longest slug length I could use with only a card in a 2 3/4 inch case? Planning on using 4227 or 4759 at 1400-1500 fps.

Buckshot- I am planning on doing a LBT LFN-Can you hollowpoint it? What will happen to stability?

Thanks

[Ken Campbell, Iowa]

Hi Guys ... WOW ! What an interesting thread. AWESUM !

A friend and I are pursuing a somewhat similar project, using a 20 ga. H&R.

I put a photo or 2 on the 20 gauge slug thread, Cast Boolets.

**********
Our slightly different goal is a reduced capacity case ( turned ) with a heeled bullet ( so far ) .... of 0.625 or so diameter, and 400-550 grains soft lead. We will try something about 1000 fps, and see if that is enough to drop a Iowa Whitetail ... We have experienced several instances of using the old Foster slugs, of hitting the deer solidly in the shoulder, and the slug fails to break down the deer; not enough penetration !! The shoulder shot is the preferred one to us, lots of brush and other hunters (g) and we like to see them drop right here and now!

So we are turning cases with reduced powder chamber ( starting with 5/16 diameter ) and will work up as needed . The idea is that ignition will be more positive with reduced chamber.

*********
Anyone else interested in the pipsqueek 20 gauge slugsters (g), feel free to drop me an email ; we are a cnc job shop, would be glad to help you with any special parts for your own project.

Oh yeah, we are looking at those 4 bore cases, if you are into that, we might be running some in the near future. my gawd .... what have we wrot???

regards, ken campbell
www.deltainc-usa.com

[Dixie Slugs]

Intreresting! Dixie Slugs developed a 1050'/" load for the 20 bore that has a .625"-500 gr hard cast heated slug/bullet. The design was aimed at a softer recoil load for the NEF 20 ga Tracker.
What has been interesting is there have been many deer and hogs killed out to 100 yards! At those velocity levels, one needs a hard slug/bullet for penetration.
When dealing with slug/bullets from 500 gr up to 730 grs, you do not need hyper velocity for a go killin load.
Regards, James

[Ken Campbell, Iowa]

Hi, for youse guys playing with converting rifle actions to shotgun slug use, has anyone played with the French Mas military action?

While a bit ugly (g)... it has mid locking lugs, and that might be much simpler than welding lugs on a mauser etc. I had 3 of these, but sold them all, and so cant furnish measurements now ... I always thought it would be interesting to put a medium case and a quality barrel on one .... even a 2.5 inch 20 gauge 600 grain slug at 1300 fps or so should be enough medicine for a usa combat critter ...

....... oh, one question ... who is making some medium heavy shotgun barrel blanks that a feller could purchase ??... and how good are they, as a guess .... my projects are kind of aimed at accuracy, and light loads so I can shoot a lot ... well, with a big sissy bag ...

thanks, everyone, ken campbell, deltawerkes.

[hubel458]

A 600 gr Dixie works great in 2.75" case. They're .75" long.

Pacnor makes 12ga blanks. Some guys have built 20ga
with 3.5" RMC brass cases. The Dixie slugs are great as they
are hard. Their 600g 12ga is the worlds best. Now new stuff.

10GA FH..a NEF 10ga, medium to heavy wt smooth barrel.
28" long, gun weighted to 14lbs. Factory FED 765gr loads
are 1300 fps. 200 gr of first powder tested is 7383 surplus
and the regular shotgun primers got 765 gr to 1600,
for 4300 ft lbs. Case won't hold anymore 7383.
Federal factory hollowbase slug is .025" smaller than
10ga bore. I bumped it up to the .775" size, by expanding
hollow base. With 7383 that gave 1750 fps.Fast starting
shotgun powders expand base better than much slower 7383.
The Federal factory load has 120gr of wads/seals about 1.4"
long. Better to replace with much more slower powder,
getting better velocity, still at low shotgun pressures.
We will test 4227 with the same slug , and saboted slug
of some design. We roll crimped with crimper in drill press.
Case expansion with 7383 very little(.006") like
the factory loads. 3.5" plastic.Used one .050 wad.Ed

[mroliver77]

Ed,
I have had the idea of a .410 Hot Rod for some time and am fascinated by your postings on the 12gauge. I see some very usefull hunting loads comming out of your testing or at least some great data to work up some specialty slug rounds from. Us folks in shotgun only zones with short seasons need all the help we can get. I would love to see some accuracy reports, chamber drawings (throat design) and would really love some actual range tradjectory reports say out to 300 yards. Thanks for all you have shared so far. Jay

[reboundspring]

Gents,
I'm new to the site. Years ago I built a 12 ga rifle based on a Greener Martini
action, with Fajen wood, and a rifled 12 ga bbl from a maker i can't remember!
Twist on the bbl is 1-60. I made my own half reamer, nothing for 12 ga
rifles being available at the time.
The chamber was cut to fit thick wall brass turned cases. The chamber has
a throat and leade similar to a regular lead bullet rifle. It shoots a short
paradox style bullet pretty well. It weighs around 560 grains.
I have a longer 770 grain pointed HB bullet for it, that gives only fair
accuracy. Both bullets are groove dia (.730) and I use SPG, or Blue Lube.
Max velocity with IMR 4198 is 1788 fps. Primers are Large Rifle Mag.

Does it seem like the bbl twist is too slow for the velocity?, Or is 3" at 100 yds
par for the course for a 5 shot group?

thanks,
reboundspring

[hubel458]

When slugs start getting above an ounce you need a
1 to 35 twist like NEF and Savage uses. i want to do
a Greener in the future also.Ed

[reboundspring]

Hubel,
I guess the slow twist is why it shoots a round ball really well!
The Paradox bullet is built sort of like a Lee REAL bullet. A ball with
a very short shank.
To shoot the heavy stuff, a faster twist is needed? Who makes a Good 12 ga
barrel suitable for lead bullets? I saw PacNor mentioned.
My experience with PacNor is very limited. One 3R bbl in .308, only.
It shot pretty well on a reworked Rem 700, but not up to an Obermeyer
or Krieger. I don't mean to step on toes, if PacNor is your favorite.
I know their 6mm and .22 bbls show up well in benchrest competition.
Any Opinions, or does anybody feel that gilt-edged accuracy in a 12 ga rifle
is a non-issue!
Thanks Hubel and All
Reboundspring

[Greg5278]

I've got one leftover 12ga 1 in 28 Canted land barrel billet left. It is stainless, and a collaborative effort I put together with Pacnor, and Clearwater reboring. It is 29" long and 1.350: diameter if I remeber correctly. I'm getting mine rebarreled now. It should be done in 2 weeks. You should do better than 3" at 100yards with yours. The 1 in 66 should shoot my 770grain solid fine, it is .785" long, so it is about 1 caliber in length.
Greg

[reboundspring]

Greg,
Tell me more! Is your billet for sale, or going on your rifle?
What does your 770 gr solid look like? Is it something you designed?
Did you make your own mold or have it done out?
I'm curious, as I lathe bored mine. It's aluminum, with a steel cutoff, and base plug.
I pour the big bullet in 1-20 alloy. Should i go harder on the alloy?
Any chance the soft alloy could contribute to the modest accuracy?
Thanks!
Reboundspring

[Greg5278]

The Billet is for sale, as it was ordered, but the Guy now wants to sell it. It is for sale for about 1/2 of what is would cost to remake it. My 770grain slug is a solid base Truncated cone, and was made before Mountain molds stopped making 12 ga molds. It is oversize, but I have a custom 12ga sizing die to bring it down to .729". It should require less twist than your 770, because it must be shoter. The HP makes the bulet longer for the same weight. Send me an email, and we'll see what we can work out. The barrel was cut with rifling I designed/requested. Boots Obermeyer was consulted on the Cutter design, and land profile. It is a 7 land version of the familiar 5R profile. The land has an angle on it to stress the bullet less, and to lessen fouling, regullar rifling is a pain to clean in a shotgun. The old bore rifles had a radius or angle at the bottom of the land and groove juncture.

You could try shooting WW alloy slugs in your gun, I don't think bullet hardness is the issue. I don't know what your bullet looks like, or if the rifling is stripping, but I doubt it. You might have to step up the velocity with the 770 if you don;'t have enough twist. Is the action suitable for slightly over Shotgun pressure? I have pressure tested loads in the 14-17K PSI range that you could use. They were developed in the pressure gun with my 880grain slug, and IMR 4227 and 4759. The 880 will do 1500FPS + at 15K pressure. Brass cases would help if the action is strong enough. Is it going to be a Shotgun, or a true Bore Rifle?

my email is: gksappington@aol.com
Greg

[Aaron]

Well, I loaded up some of Jame's slugs, the 730gr ones. I am going to get my Tar Hunt on paper with 55gr loads of 4759. Then I am going to work up checking velocity, hoping for 1400-1500. Sat. we'll see what happens.

Aaron

[hubel458]

In 10GA NEF 110gr 4227 got 765gr slug
to 1800, ejected ok. If it was a really
heavy barrel it could do more.Using the
7383 surplus at 150 gr, don't even have
to resize to fire 3 times. The 28GA FH
done and testing in next couple weeks.Ed

[Dixie Slugs]

I might add something here for all of you to argue about.....rifling twist!
There has been some discussion here about our Dixie Terminator slug/bullet - .730"diameter x.735"length - 730 gr. Now..as you can see that slug/bullet is about "squared" meaning the diameter equals the length and will be stabilized in down to a one turn in 108".....same as a ball (which is squared)....check Greenhill.
Now...It will also shoot well in todays fast twist barrel since it is very hard and will not strip....but, I do think it would be more accurate from that slow twist.
All of you know, or should know, that the required twist is related to the length of the projectile.....ergo today's fast twist barrels set up for long sabot loads.
I will not begin to get into a peeing contest over what is the ideal slug/bullet weight and velocity. Dixie takes a much simpler approach....match the designs the Brits used in Africa/Indai with the 12 bore Paradox gun. The black powder load was around 1000'/"....as is our 12 bire Stryker. Their Smokeless (Cordite) loads was arouns 1200'/".....Dixie's Terminator is 1250'/" from a 20" rifled barrel.
It is very interesting to see all the advanced work done on 12 ga, etc...but we have to consider what recoil, etc the shooter will get from the guns they buy and shoot! With this in mind, I do not want anyone to think Dixie is behind the times with their load lines! We design, make, and sell ammo for the average hunter/shooter!...and have been rather sucessful, based on our production figures.
We did quite a bit of work for another group wanting a low velocity/low recoil target load. In essence it later became our Stryker 12 - .730"-730 gr @ 1050'/" (note it matches the blackpowder Paradox load)....but, their accuracy did not match what we get on a daily test?....could it be they were pushing another brand of ammo?....I think so!
What has turned out is that 1050'/" load, used in the light NEF 12 ga Tracker has put down a great deal of hogs and deer!
I will say this to all those working on advanced loads....very few slug/bullets are going to perform at those velocity figures. It does seems that everyone is more interested in velocity than how the bullet performs.....on game, tanks, elephants, or whatever.
Dixie's position is simple.....if it will not sell to the general public, it's a hobby. But there is nothing wrong with that and maybe some future designs will evole from the work.
Now that I have stirred the pot, have at it!
Regards, James

[hubel458]

The best 12ga slug going is the Dixie 600gr,
and the way our hopped up loads are they
are for heavier rifled barrel guns. Not for the
regular lighter guns that Dixies makes their loads
for. And it's fairly accurate in my long brass case
at high speeds, open sights, and bad eyes.
Three inch group at 50 yds, with hot loads,
and you back off little, it will do that at a 100yds.

Fired 28GA FH-- Cases extract easy.--It is
in bolt action Enfield. With 550gr jkt slug,
full load 150 gr of WC-860, got 1900 fps.
This will be slowest load and powder.
In picture is 3.25" brass 28ga cases, regular
28ga plastic case, jkt slugs, a 458Win
for comparison.Regular cases work also.Ed

[Dixie Slugs]

Thanks for the comment on our 600 gr slug/bullet! We just got the mold back yesterday from Pedersoli in Italy. They copied the bullet (in pure lead) for their double 12 bore ML. They may even make molds for it for sale in Europe.
I will say this....any slug/bullet that will stand up to Ed's cannons, will handle anything that walks.
Ed is correct....we sell to a different market, but having said that....Ed's work sure shows good design bullets from poor designs.
However, we full bore makers and shooters must be very careful around the sabot fellows....some think they have the handle on rifled barrels!
Best Regards, James

[hubel458]

James- Hooray you got it back -- can you make some more this winter.
Will call next week to order a hundred or more.Ed

[Dixie Slugs]

Hello Ed....I will see if we can fit it in. It might be of interest that Pedersoli copied the slug and have tested it a great deal in their ML rifled double, pure lead of course. The 600 grainer regulates at about 60 yards in the gun with the same powder charges use with ball.. They may have molds for sale through Dixie?????????
We will be retesting that bullet in a load I have been thinking of. The 600 gr ail give less recoil than the 730 gr....and I what to see what velocity we can get. Of course, we have to stay within a recoil level the average shooter/hunter wants.
Regards, James