IMR 4895 showing rust cloud after 20 years

[Andy]

I started reloading last year so I am not well-versed on how to tell if powder has gone bad, but want to relate my experience as I hope it will be helpful to others in one way or another.

Short version: 20 year old imr 4895 stored in heated, dry basements in a non-humid area is generating a rust-like cloud 20 years after the lot date, so please keep this in mind with your personal stocks of it.

Longer version:
I purchased 3 cans of the same lot of IMR 4895 from a local reloader last year and got around to using them this year. The first time I poured some into the hopper this month, I saw a cloud of red dust rise up from the hopper as I poured. I was concerned and took it to two experienced older reloaders that I know. Both observed the powder and saw the dust and advised me that the dust was not normal but was so minor that most people would not have even noticed it (you have to have it against a black background to see it), and that it would be okay to proceed with using it up quickly if I did so very cautiously and used it all up in the near term.

Accordingly I loaded and shot some .308 rounds with it using roughly 70% of the max loads listed for a .308 (figured 70% was a safe place to test given the similar 60% load instructions for H4895) and experienced normal velocity ranges and slightly poor extreme spread for the loads. For example, if you would expect 40 for ES, I got 60 or 70 but no worse.

In summary, I am grateful to have noticed that the powder was starting to go bad early where I can still use it up this year for practice loads, but disappointed that powder can go bad this quickly when stored in reasonably good conditions.

[afish4570]

I started reloading last year so I am not well-versed on how to tell if powder has gone bad, but want to relate my experience as I hope it will be helpful to others in one way or another.

Short version: 20 year old imr 4895 stored in heated, dry basements in a non-humid area is generating a rust-like cloud 20 years after the lot date, so please keep this in mind with your personal stocks of it.

Longer version:
I purchased 3 cans of the same lot of IMR 4895 from a local reloader last year and got around to using them this year. The first time I poured some into the hopper this month, I saw a cloud of red dust rise up from the hopper as I poured. I was concerned and took it to two experienced older reloaders that I know. Both observed the powder and saw the dust and advised me that the dust was not normal but was so minor that most people would not have even noticed it (you have to have it against a black background to see it), and that it would be okay to proceed with using it up quickly if I did so very cautiously and used it all up in the near term.

Accordingly I loaded and shot some .308 rounds with it using roughly 70% of the max loads listed for a .308 (figured 70% was a safe place to test given the similar 60% load instructions for H4895) and experienced normal velocity ranges and slightly poor extreme spread for the loads. For example, if you would expect 40 for ES, I got 60 or 70 but no worse.

In summary, I am grateful to have noticed that the powder was starting to go bad early where I can still use it up this year for practice loads, but disappointed that powder can go bad this quickly when stored in reasonably good conditions.

I lost a metal can and a half (1 1/2/#) last year too. It was bought in 1991 0r 92. Don't breathe the dust as it is toxic with nitreous type chemicals. Over 30 yrs. ago I bought an 8# H4895 in a cardboard container that was old but the price was too good to pass. After I had shot a pound or so and hadn't loaded anything using it in a year or two later....I discovered....Went in the closet to grab a flannel shirt and it disintegrated on the top of where the hangar held the shirt. Seems the cotton cloth exposed was destroyed by the fumes of the chemical breakdown.....lost only the cotton fabric clothes, the polyester were ok. All metal hangers exposed were badly rusted.
The canister of cardboard was crumbled & the tin top and bottom was rusted with the powder laying around the crumbled canister. I carefully swept it onto the dust pan and threw it on the flower bed. The rest I cleaned up with warm soapy water and discarded the towel rag....afish4570

[Iowa Fox]

The IMR's are good at this in my experience.

[Andy]

In my reading it sounds like 4895 is an often used powder for military loads, do they do something differently for the military ammo or just discard/sell it after 20 years? Do we need to be careful with certain dated surplus rounds as a result of this? Or is my experience uncommon and a result of anomalies in storage?

If this is normal for some powders I had thought it would be more common knowledge. All I had heard prior to this was stuff like "powder never goes bad" "never had it happen to me" etc. 20 years seems too short in the reloading world where we are increasingly in a stockpile mode and tend to batch test a powder.

[44man]

It is still storage related. Too warm or something, moisture, etc.
I have powders over 61 years old that are still good.

[Digital Dan]

Shooting '82 vintage 2400 from a cardboard container at present. Some cans of other powders a few years younger got transferred to empty plastic powder containers due to minor rusting on the interior, no other problems.

[farmerjim]

IMR 4350, 3031, 4064 and others, all in 1 lb metal cans. Bought in the mid 60's from Herters, stored in hot
(140 F) and cold, for the South, ( 25 F) locations all still good. Herco, Bullseye, Unique, in 4 lb metal kegs also still good. I don't know why some goes bad and others don't. It is not storage conditions in my case, because I don't think anything could be worse than a south Louisiana attic.

[SSGOldfart]

IMR 4350, 3031, 4064 and others, all in 1 lb metal cans. Bought in the mid 60's from Herters, stored in hot
(140 F) and cold, for the South, ( 25 F) locations all still good. Herco, Bullseye, Unique, in 4 lb metal kegs also still good. I don't know why some goes bad and others don't. It is not storage conditions in my case, because I don't think anything could be worse than a south Louisiana attic.

That is also true for East Texas

[farmerjim]

"That is also true for East Texas"

Some Texans tell me that the swamp stops at the border. Every time I go into South east Texas I find it as hot and humid as here.

[Walter Laich]

I carefully swept it onto the dust pan and threw it on the flower bed....afish4570

did you see any difference in the flowers? Heard old powder is a great though expensive fertilizer.

[DerekP Houston]

did you see any difference in the flowers? Heard old powder is a great though expensive fertilizer.

I believe this was true only for black powder, I don't think modern smokeless works as fertilizer.

[Shiloh]

How was it stored by the fellow you purchased from?? Any idea's??
20 years in good storage conditions isn't long at all.

Shiloh

[bdicki]

Works on the lawn, you can write messages on your neighbors lawn.

[Bruntson]

I started reloading last year so I am not well-versed on how to tell if powder has gone bad, but want to relate my experience as I hope it will be helpful to others in one way or another.

Short version: 20 year old imr 4895 stored in heated, dry basements in a non-humid area is generating a rust-like cloud 20 years after the lot date, so please keep this in mind with your personal stocks of it.

I find there is no such thing as a non humid part of a basement. Especially if it is advertised that way by a seller.
And I am reloading using a good #3 can of Alcan AL-8. Alcan went under somewhere around 1973.

[ravelode]

I had same thing with the exact same powder, it blew the extractor out of my model 70 in 30-06. Had to have the barrel set back due to bolt setback. Have you ever seen a belted primer less 30-06 case? The powder was less than 5yrs old, but was stored in a very humid area of my screen printing shop.

[HangFireW8]

Short version: 20 year old imr 4895 stored in heated, dry basements in a non-humid area is generating a rust-like cloud 20 years after the lot date, so please keep this in mind with your personal stocks of it.
...
In summary, I am grateful to have noticed that the powder was starting to go bad early where I can still use it up this year for practice loads, but disappointed that powder can go bad this quickly when stored in reasonably good conditions.

Here's something to be grateful for, if it's already generating a red cloud, do NOT use it at all. It is already past the point where it can be used safely.

[afish4570]

The IMR's are good at this in my experience.

My latest issue was 1 1/2# 4895 stored in 1# steel cans in a heated and A/C ed house. One can was sealed and the 2nd can half used. Seems not to have made any difference. I have a steel can IMR 4227 1/4 full dated & bought in 1968. Still good & same goes for a partial cardboard canister of Hodgdon Ball C2....Think the IMR products especially 4895 decompose the fastest. afish4570

[Andy]

Ravelode are you going by the stamped lot date on the can, or when you bought it? 5 years seems awfully short.

I gather they aren't sold in cans anymore (new) is that correct?

I know many people would dump a can at the first sign of the red dust, but I have also read many informative posts by people who seem careful and thoughtful, where they used powder at this early stage of decay(carefully) and had normal results.

For my part, I have shot about 150 loads with this so far and the velocities have been consistently where they should be, slightly larger extreme spread to a group, and never once anything unexplained. I'm not telling anyone else what to do, but given the information I am aware of at this time, I do not feel that it is a risky endeavor to use up the rest of this powder in moderate loads over the next 6 months. If someone has information to the contrary please let me know, I am not set in this decision.

I have three rifles that I can use this with that I need practice on so it won't be a chore to use it up fairly quickly.

[fatelk]

The only powder I've had go really bad was some old surplus 4895. I don't know how old it was or how it had been stored before I got it, but I noticed the brown dust first and decided to use it anyway. What I shot right away seemed fine as I recall, but then I was finding rotten ammo for years- stuff I loaded and forgot about. The unused powder went bad in a big way with a nasty toxic cloud when you opened the container. It would hardly even burn in a pile in the driveway. Any ammo I found that I had loaded with it was corroding from the inside out. Even the brass and bullets were corroded beyond use.

Maybe it would be fine to use it up quickly in mild loads, but for me personally any I would find like that I would just dump. It hurts to toss usable powder in this day and age and I would be tempted to use it, but it sure was a big hassle the last time I did that.

[Frank46]

i had a couple pounds of IMR 4064 go bad and when I opened one can the entire inside was rusted, then checked the other can and same thing. I've used IMR 4064 in the '06 but always got the two groups syndrome. Two or three shots clustered together and then the next two clustered slightly apart from the last group. Chronograph told the story as the first three shots had one group of feet per second and the next two slightly different. Frank