.310 Cadet Reloading 101, part 1

[Bristoe]

I have a BSA cadet in 310. All original, good condition. Victoria stamps from 1911. I slugged the bore and rolled the five groove bullet in my digital caliber multiple times. At the smallest it measures 318 and it goes as high as 322. I presume that range is due to my poor method of measurement. I am a black powder shooter, so that kind of loading is easy for me. I have some original 310 shells cases that I got off eBay and some cut and head trimmed 32-20 cases. I use lead tips that I bought from GAD. They measure 326 just above the grease ring. I decap the old primers with a hand made and hand held decapper and a hammer. I have no dies for 310 and no shell holder. I dont resize. I fill the cases with black until the powder will be compressed about 1/8 inch when I seat the bullet. I seat the bullet with my thumb and if it is too hard to push in then I push the bullet into the shell by pressing it into a hole that I carved into the side of my reloading table. The hole does not deform the bullet tip shape. Since the tip is a healed bullet, it naturally stops at the right place and since this is a single shot gun, I dont need a crimp. When I shoot these bullets, I dip the loaded tips into a cup of BP lube and then chamber them into the Aussie Cadet. Accuracy is outstanding and many of my SASS club members enjoy shooting this rifle with me.

I kind of wish that this gun had a bit more oomphf to it when fired. I am a long range Black Powder SASS shooter. I have seen some Cadets rechambered for 32 Special, but that does not excite me since it is a smokeless round. I have just recently heard of a few cadets rechambered for 32-40. Now that is a BP round I can have fun with out to 400 yards on steel plates. Does anyone have experiences with 32-40 Cadets?

Bronco Birnbaum

Long time no see, guy.

I've been having a lot of fun with the Cadet I bought offa you.

I made a scope mount for it that fits in the rear sight base and holds a 2.75 Burris scout scope.



I've been loading it with non heeled .321" cast bullets which were originally for a 32-40 until I trimmed them to .670" in a lathe. They weigh 128 grains. I stuff them in Starline 32-20 cases which have been trimmed to 1.120" and fireformed to the Cadet's chamber.



They don't look like other .310 Cadet cartridges. I size the cases with a C&H .30 Carbine die and do the rest of the loading procedure with some dies I turned out in the lathe. (expander/flare, seater, taper crimp)



I pack 'em with 15.5 grains of AA1680 and they do 1640 fps,..have a nice lil' *bark* to 'em when ya touch one off!

They'll do this at 100 yards all day long.

[linus]

I am fortunate in owning two Martini cadets in 310. The one still in military configuration had a small problem in that at the lowest sight setting it would hit about 4 or more inches higher than point of aim. So I sawed off the tapered blade and dovetailed into the front sight block a small blade sight off a Swedish Mauser. Then filed it down until it hit an inch high at 50 yards.
I am using CBE's 120 grain cast bullet with a soft alloy. That is everything from wheel weights at the hardest to a 1:50 tin in lead mixture at the softest. Pure lead worked quite well, but adding a tad of tin improved pouring quality.
For powder I have focused on Unique at 4.5 to 5.0 gr and AA9, ranging from 5.0 to 6.5 gr. I haven't settled on the most accurate load yet, but am quite happy with 5.5 gr of AA9.
Lubing these heeled bullets is a pain and easily messy. I tried hand lubing which worked quite well but finger application was tedious and messy. Then i switched to using Lee's liqid Alox diluted with a very small amount of 90% isopropyl alcohol to reduce viscosity. The 75% is less miscible with the alox. I rolled the bullets around in the mixture and then stood them up nose first in a wooden block with holes drilled into it at a smaller diameter than the bullet but wide enough to give support to the bullet's nose. Then I decreased the time and mess further with a new technique. Using the same alox/alcohol mixture I used a pipe cleaner as a paint brush and applied the lube to the groove and surrounding areas on the bullet, then stood them up nose first in the holes in the wood block. Most never required wiping the bases clean after drying.
I can't praise Jim Allison's CBE mold enough. I would like to hear others' experiences with other bullets from the varieties he offfers, like his 130gr bullet.
In an other post i will elaborate on my other cadet that had been converted to 32-20. A truly superb rifle once the compatibilities were worked out.

Linus.
I got this nickname when I used to write Linus Was Here on bathroom walls in Viet Nam. I guess that dates me

[Titch]

I've reloaded for the .310 cadet for a couple of years. Two things I've found that are worth knowing. If you cast the .310 boolit from a Lee mould it's slightly pointed, rather than round nosed and the dam thing gets pulled back out of the case when you make 'em with Simplex dies. I haven't found a way around this except to seat 'em with finger pressure only, which isn't ideal. The round nose castings don't do this. Also, I've used brass cut down 32-20's and "proper" .310 cases imported from Australia. Both work fine, but I also tried nickel plated .32-20 cases and cut them down and they can't hold a 3 foot group at 50 yards. I don't know why, but avoid nickel cases like the plague. Otherwise, the .310 is a fine gun for a pistol calibre range. I've successfully shot mine on military reactive targets right out to 200 yards without problem and with dependable accuracy.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Then I decreased the time and mess further with a new technique. Using the same alox/alcohol mixture I used a pipe cleaner as a paint brush and applied the lube to the groove and surrounding areas on the bullet,

Would it be better if you loaded the heeled boolit and used the cartridge case to hold onto while you painted the Alox onto the lube grooves?

[Hooker53]

BigJohn, any updates on your testing?? Really good thread. Enjoyed it.

[Hilly]

Jansa arms no longer handle Simplex dies and accessories. You can now go directly to Simplex for dies and accessories.
Their web site is http://www.simplexreloading.com/ and they are pretty darn quick to get things out. My .310 dies were delivered in 3 days!

[Hilly]

Well, I finally sorted out my projectile/case/loading die issues and have fired a couple of test rounds. They chambered in 2 different Cadets, both went bang and the projectiles both went somewhere near where I was aiming.
What I learned in the process is that "Starline" brass is thinner than the old "Bertram Bullet Co." brass and a heeled projectile will be a loose fit in the case when you use "Simplex" dies. Changing to a non-heeled projectile solves that problem.
Then I had to melt down the 200 heeled projectiles and re-make them.
Anyway, it was a learning experience.

[Hooker53]

I found a new test Boolit a few months ago and thought I would load a few up and try them this weekend. They are casted a little smaller then a heeled Boolit but they are very hollow based. I loaded some with 4.5 and 5 grns of Trail Boss. Was Very surprised at how well they worked. Will do some more testing in the next few weeks. Keep shooting gents.

Roy
Hooker53

[Rapidrob]

A great old post that should never die.
Back in '66 I bought a Cadet rifle from a gun shop for six bucks. There was no ammo of course for these rifles,not even Old Western Scrounger had any for sale then.
I used cut down .32-20 brass and thinned the rims with a Swiss needle file. I filled the case with FFF-g black powder under a OO-Buck ball. The local Crows and Rabbits feared me.
Jump 50 years later and vast quantities of tried / failed and good loads for this rifle and if the combination is correct you can get pretty good accuracy.
I fellow recommended I try this new mold casting a heeled 130 grain bullet. It has a long metplath and really seals the bore well when fired.
I ordered a three cavity mold and tried out 100 rounds at the 200 meter range.
The accuracy was astounding. Where I was getting 3 MOA with my old RCBS loads, this bullet shrunk the groups down to almost 1 MOA. For an open sighted rifle and my seasoned eyes I'll take it!
Over the years I have tried fast and slow loads. It seems as it does with other calibers a really consistent 3/4 charge load always gives the best results.
I'm using the tried and true 4.5 grains of Unique powder and a standard Winchester Small Rifle primer.
I do do a crimp on the heeled bullet. I found that my bullet cannalure tool will run a crimp line around the bullets base/case mouth and really hold the bullet in place requiring a consistent bullet pull force to overcome the crimp.
I'm working on a "stab crimp" pair of pliers to try as well.
The new mold is Aluminum and is large requiring a lot of heat to give you consistently shaped bullets but once you have done that ( around 720 degrees F ) you will get perfect bullets. I do use a SACO lube/sizer and a .323 die to lube the one grease ring.
So far there are no signs of leading in the rifles bore.

[Hooker53]

Hello Rob. It's a great feeling when you take an old rifle like this and work up a load like that isn't it? That very load you use, the 4.5 grain of U seems to work for a lot of these Cadets. I use the RCBS mold and my rifle seems to like that Boolit as long as they are a little on the soft side. My Cadet would be one of the last guns I would sell. I lucked up and got a really nice one. Thanks for posting your info and Keep Shooting!!!

Roy

[Rapidrob]

I'll be shooting the rifle in my clubs match this month which is an Off-Hand match shooting at 200 meters at a 10x12" steel target and NRA Hi-Power Silhouette Chicken targets if the wind is calm.
I've wondered how well the rifle would shoot the .323 ( 8mm Nambu ) FMJ pistol bullet? While light, it may stabilize well.
One of the Australian sites says the WWII boot camp trainees were shooting a FMJ bullet out to 300 yards and "accuracy was as good as the .303 rifle at 300 yards" with the Martini Cadet.
Anyone have any more info on this?
I love the history of firearms and how they were used.

[windy]

Rob, Huntington (Huntington Die Specialties) has plated Nambu bullets--I think the current batch is 100gr and .320--and they shot well in my rechambered cadet in 32WS, over 7.5gr of Trailboss--about 1600 ft/sec. I never found a load for them at closer to original speed, so my sights were always a bit off (I set 'em at about 60 yards for a 100-yard target; they were dead on at 50 yards set at zero) and they never did quite get me 1-minute groups, but they sure were fun to plink with. I picked a grouse out of a tree at 90 yards once; cost me 1/4 of the meat, but very effective. I'm getting that one rebarreled to 25-35 (1-10" twist) since I now have another in original 310 chambering, which came with the earlier rear sight (no windage adjustment) and grouped OK but about 4" right at 50 yards; I'm rebarreling it with a barrel fitted with the better sight. I'll be playing with both this fall; I think the 25-35 will make an excellent "stalking rifle" and the original configuration is great for everything you'd use a 32-20 for. I'd like to find a source for the FMJ bullets they made for WW2, just for grins--they thought they' have to use 'em if the Japanese invaded. Imagine those school kids facing the Nip infantry with single-shots!
windy

[swamp]

I have a few of the jacketed rounds by Kynoch. They used a pointed FMJ. Tried one and it fired fine. Berdan primed of course.
swamp

[windy]

Hey, guys, Huntington's has the Bertram brass on sale at 20 bucks a 20-round bag; that's about half price where I come from. Best take advantage--I did!
windy

[gunnie]

That's less than we pay for 310 brass here.

Have two Martini Cadets & have been having issues with one of them. It wasn't firing every round. Out of 50 reloads there would have been almost half that didn't work. No or only minimal firing pin mark on the primer.

Finally figured it out today. Someone has cut the chamber to use shortened 32-20 brass! The thicker rim of the 32-20 brass was allowing the 310 brass to seat too deep in the chamber. So now I have to decide whether or not to cut chamber for 32-20 or just shorten 310 bras.

[john.k]

probably just cut the rim recess deeper.........this can be remedied if you must use costly 310 brass,just put a couple of spots of solder in the rim recess,even super glue works for a long while....I have always used 32/20 brass at around $30 a hundred.IMHO ,only newbies use the costly brass.There is no need to shorten the cases,and no need for heeled bullets ,as 32/20 is quite thin,and Cadet barrel has no neck as such,just a long taper due to the heeled bullet.If the cases are left unsized,a 316 bullet fits ok..(316 is right for a Greener)

[gunnie]

John, I don't think I'll stuff round with trying to make the rim recess shallower. The Remington 32-20 brass fits in fine with minimal barrel face visible compared to a few thou more visible with 310 brass.

To follow my thought processes further, I then tried one of my 32-20 reloads for my Winnie Mod92, in the problem Cadet. The loaded round would not fully enter the chamber. Now, considering that the 32-20 case is somewhat longer than the 310, by 8-12mm's or so (don't know exact, just going off what I noticed looking at the two side by side) it stands to reason that the 32-20 will not chamber in the 310 chamber - correct? Hence why I assume that the previous owner has had the chamber modified by having the rim recess deepened to accept the thicker 32-20 brass.

I got a mate of mine to check the Cadets he has in his collection and he doesn't have any with a deep rim recessed chamber. All show correct head-spacing for 310 brass. Now considering that 32-20 brass was an easier option than 310 brass, I'm not surprised that this has occurred. Additionally, as the four serial numbers stamped on the problem Cadet are all the same, it follows my thoughts as being a simple mod to carry out. Without any need for replacing a barrel etc.

So, as I don't want to replace what is an 8/10 or better barrel on this rifle, modifying 32-20 brass to suit the chamber is a more appropriate option I think. I have plenty of 32-20 brass, bought four bags of Remington brass about 10yrs about ($28 a bag) and was given 200-odd factory 32-20 rounds, so there's no shortage of rounds/brass for the Model92. So I can afford to cut 100 just for this Cadet. Plus I have 200 310 cases and several packets of Super 310 factory ammo. Was also given two boxes of the military jacketed ammo, but these will remain as is for collectors value.

I've found the older Super brass to be a slightly better quality of brass than the newer Bertram product but bought new stuff so I could split ammo to dedicate to each rifle. Last lot of new Bertram 310 brass I bought, I paid $28 a bag of 20, about 2yrs ago. I thought this was OK so bought 3 bags. It was better than paying almost $300 for 100 Sako 22PPC cases or $105 for 20 x .375 Nitro Express flanged 2.5" cases!

I've got a third Cadet in the mill; just waiting on the PTA to come in. It's stamped QLD CMF, all matching numbers with a 7-8/10 bore and overall good condition. I'm planning on cleaning the woodwork up and having the metalwork re-blued to present to my wife for a Xmas pressie. She has started shooting Cadet match in Service Rifle as she got bored sitting watching me compete. Can't complain about that eh!

I think the Martini Cadets are a fantastic action. They make a great little low recoil ex-mil issue rifle to shoot with and can be very accurate with a great trigger. The action is also perfect for a custom single shot rifle. I have several at present - 17 Ackley Hornet, 22 K-Hornet, 17-222Rimmed, 20-222Rimmed and 357Mag. Also have two in 22Rimfire - Model 12/15 and a Sportco Clubmaster.

Great thread on a fantastic action/rifle.

[john.k]

Mine is deeper cause I took off the barrel and took a bit out...........I also slightly counterbored the muzzle,which previously seemed to be done with a drillbit held cockeyed...........anyway ,its a $30 gun which couldnt hit anything,now shoots OK for a plinker......I did consider getting a nicer BSA 1911,but ,no more guns,got enough.

[gunnie]

Mine is deeper cause I took off the barrel and took a bit out...........I also slightly counterbored the muzzle,which previously seemed to be done with a drillbit held cockeyed...........anyway ,its a $30 gun which couldnt hit anything,now shoots OK for a plinker......I did consider getting a nicer BSA 1911,but ,no more guns,got enough.

Baaahhh humbug John! You can never have enough guns!!! I'm always on the look-out for that next addition to the safes. And, if the safes are full, then it's time for another safe!

[Stephen Cohen]

A good friend of mine uses his Martini cadet in Military shoots, he loads the heeled cast bullets that I coat with HI-Tek for him, he has found that accuracy improved out of site with this coating. Regards Stephen