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Thread: .310 Cadet Reloading 101, part 1

  1. #21
    Boolit Master



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    Buffalo Arms makes the .310, not sure what they use as a parent case as they are out of stock at the moment. The interesting item is they list two different case lenghts, 1.075 and 1.120. When I asked about the difference I was told the shorter cases was for loading the original heel type boollet and the longer case was for "inside lubricated" boolits.

    I tried to order some Starline .32-20 cases from Midway USA but even those are out of stock at the moment. I've heard the Starline brand .32-20 has a rim that is closer to the orginal .310 rim.
    Dan in FL - Call me TD Savage 219 & 220 rifle/shotguns wanted.

  2. #22
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    .310 Cadet Reloading, Case Length

    Trooperdan;
    That sounds to be a feasable reason for the different case lengths. Here in Australia there was a company (SUPER) which used to sell loaded ammunition for this Rifle. They used a swaged lead Projectile, (sample of this type in photo within the original post in this thread), these were not inside lubed boolits but dipped in lube after loading. They had no real lube grooves at all and relied upon what stuck to the outside of the boolit. It has been quite a while since I have seen let alone shot any of these type but I do have 200 of then here in their original box for inclusion in the trail.

    Yesterday I took the Bertram Brass cases and trimmed them back to 1.080" loaded these cases with a Winchester Small Rifle Primer, 3.8 grains of Red Dot and seated 135 grain Cast from the H. T. BUGG mold. I tested these rounds in the chambers of two spare barrels I have; one a W. W. Greener and the other a BSA. The rounds were a drop fit in one barrel and a 'push home' effort in the other. As the 135 gr boolit has a longer groove diameter section it would be inclined to engaged the rifling sooner than a lighter projectile.

    With different case lengths available; I would adjust the length of the case to suit the individual chamber of your barrels (There appears to be quite a bit of variation in chamber sizes also).

    In closing; I would summarize the variation in case length by saying Longer cases for inside lubed projectiles and shorter cases for heel type projectiles and trim cases to suit the individual chamber.

    cheers for now,

    John

  3. #23
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    I have 2 cadets, one original in .310 and the other reamed out for the .32-20 case. I bought the CBE 120 grain heeled bullet mould. I load 4.5 grains of Unique in either case to get 1150-1250 fps. I found that I got the best accuracy when I didn't resize the brass, just reprime, load powder, and thumb press bullets in case mouth. I am lubing the slugs with Lee's "liquid alox" which leaves them a bit sticky and helps to hold the cartridge together. I got the .32-20 cadet for free from a friend who couldn't get it to shoot (with factory .32-20 ammo) Now he wants it back since he has seen how well it shoots with the correct heeled bullet.

  4. #24
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    "I got the .32-20 cadet for free from a friend who couldn't get it to shoot (with factory .32-20 ammo) Now he wants it back since he has seen how well it shoots with the correct heeled bullet."

    Curator,

    You said it all in the above qoute. I f folks really want these rifles to shoot, they need to quit monkeying around trying to make do and get the proper mold and dies and then they will really enjoy shooting the Cadet. I love mine....but I was less than impressed until I procured a CBE mold and Simplex dies.
    I'm shufflin' thru the Texas sand..... but my head's in Mississippi

  5. #25
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    Cadet

    I have had a Cadet for just under a year and worked with several powders but Blue Dot has given me the best results so far. The bullet is the RCBS 120 and I hand seat the bullet and crimp with a cut down Lee 32-20 crimp die. So far I've gotten just over 2 minute groups at 100yd. The caveat is I have really old eyes so I'm not sure I can do any better but I keep trying. The up side is it goes bang and is truely a joy to shoot. I think that I could do better with a tang sight, but then that wouldn't be original. BTW the cadet hails from NSW.

    Bob

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by trooperdan
    Buffalo Arms makes the .310, not sure what they use as a parent case as they are out of stock at the moment. The interesting item is they list two different case lenghts, 1.075 and 1.120. When I asked about the difference I was told the shorter cases was for loading the original heel type boollet and the longer case was for "inside lubricated" boolits.
    They use 32-20 cases. I just got mine yesterday; they had been out of stock for a few weeks. I must have a very short chamber, however. I had originally ordered the longer cases and found I had to trim them to about 1.00" in order to chamber with the bullets I have (from LTD Cast Bullets, www.customcastbullets.com/) So I ordered the shorter ones @ 1.075 but they will have to be trimmed back as well.

    I'm looking forward to getting mine shooting after sitting around for a year or more. At this point I don't have dedicated .310 dies (although someone here in Canada said he had a set to sell); I'm going to try some 32-20 dies first. I have heard of modifying a Lee crimp die to handle the .310 (as I'd prefer to crimp them a little rather than rely on Alox alone) but I suspect that with the short cases this might be a problem.

    Stuart

    ps- Anyone know where I could obtain a spare extractor for a .310? I happen to have a spare barrel which I got for a possible .357 Mag. conversion and it would be good to have a separate extractor for this.

  7. #27
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    bullets & brass

    I have two Cadet rifles, the first is rather well worn and was rechambered for 32-20 which doesn't shoot worth 'spit' as the bullet is too small for the bore, the second is in near pristine condition with a bright bore. I ordered bullets and .310 brass from Buffalo Arms and was pleased with their heeled bullet and cut down 32-20 brass. I now plan to alter my own brass to fit my rifles. I did find a barrel on fleabay a couple of months back and intend to switch it out for my rechambered barrel thus returning the old girl back to original .310. Now looking for a good mold to cast my own bullets. I'm contemplating making a silicone mold using one of the Buffalo bullets. The silicone will certainly stand up to the heat of lead casting and has a shrinkage of less than .5% so the loss should be acceptable. Since the mold material is flexable it should work for a one piece mold that I can pour, cool, pop out the bullets and cut the sprues.

    I hand loaded using a Lee Loader. This was done by placing the bullet inside the loader, inverting it on top of the brass, then using the seating tool and hammer to seat the bullet without pressing it through the sizer. I used an original Kynoch .310 round to gauge the height for the hand loader. The loads were done with unique powder and I ranged across the recommended load weight range. The results were very good out to 100 yds.

    After spending years .22 and .303 it was a wonderful experience to pull the trigger, hear the kabang and then hear the thwack of the bullet striking the target at 100 yds. I'm addicted!

    Now I want to restore my Martini Metford, dress in khaki and pith helmet, find my gun bearer and head for the velt.

    Anyone know where I can get a forestock for a Martini? Mine was cut down before coming into my hands. Philistines!

    Oren T

  8. #28
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    RCBS Makes a good .310 mold and everything on it is correct.
    I have thumb seated Cadet bullets and it works pretty well in my rifle allthough I have a 32-20 Crimp die that I cut down to work on the Cadet case now and it works real well.

    Oren, try ezboard.com britishmilitaria, There is a lot of Martini info there and you might find something on the yard sale board. There were a couple for sale in the past.

    Bob

  9. #29
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    Interesting progress.

    G'day again,

    While I have been quiet on the subject under discussion here for a couple of weeks now, I have not been idle.

    Several, finds have come my way in recent times and will assist the project greatly. The first is almost two complete packets of SUPER brand .310" Cadet factory loads with the cast boolit.

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    A sample round is shown with a couple of the type of projectile loaded into this type of ammunition.

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    Also located is a peep type rear sight for the Cadet action made by BSA, which I may fit to a rifle if the inclination strikes. But not at this time.

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    I have spent sometime cleaning the barrel on my rifle and now believe that all copper pollution has been removed. The barrel does not look bright down the bore but it is smooth and that is IMO the important thing for these tests.

    Cheers for now;

    John.
    Last edited by Bigjohn; 08-06-2006 at 11:27 PM.

  10. #30
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    Thumbs up Range Results

    G'day again;

    Today I managed to get out to the range and put some of the loads over the chrono.

    The results are:

    SUPER Factory Loads.
    Loads details unknown; Projectile 120gr cup based (Swaged?) lead boolit.

    Hi = 1261 fps
    Lo = 1186 fps
    ES = 75 fps
    Av = 1225 fps
    SD = 26 fps

    H.T. BUGG 135gr cast W/W Lee Alox
    Load 3.8grs REDDOT, Winchester Small Rifle Primer, Bertram Brass.

    Hi = 1058 fps
    Lo = 994 fps
    ES = 64 fps
    Av = 1022 fps
    SD = 25 fps

    H.T. BUGG 135gr cast W/W 50/50 Javelina beeswax/alox
    Load 3.8grs REDDOT, Winchester Small Rifle Primer, Bertram Brass.

    Hi = 1056 fps
    Lo = 1030 fps
    ES = 26 fps
    Av = 1041 fps
    SD = 9 fps

    CBE 113gr cast W/W Lee Alox
    Load 4.0grs REDDOT, Winchester Small Rifle Primer, Bertram Brass.

    Hi = 1244 fps
    Lo = 1226 fps
    ES = 18 fps
    Av = 1233 fps
    SD = 8 fps

    CBE 113gr cast W/W 50/50 Javelina beeswax/alox
    Load 4.0grs REDDOT, Winchester Small Rifle Primer, Bertram Brass.

    Hi = 1262 fps
    Lo = 1224 fps
    ES = 38 fps
    Av = 1244 fps
    SD = 16 fps

    All of the above leave some room for improvement. I kept enough back to run some accuracy tests when the longer range is available this weekend.

    No load showed any sign of leading and the grouping of the groups on the sighter target gave only minor indications of different points of impact for each load.

    The after seating lubing of the projectiles needs a little refinement. A cold projectile collects too much lube when pan lubing. Prehaps warming up the projectile with a heat gun a little?

    No real problems encountered with the application of LEE Liquid Alox.

    More details next posting.

    cheers for now,

    John.
    Last edited by Bigjohn; 08-08-2006 at 05:08 AM.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master Bad Ass Wallace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrenT
    Now I want to restore my Martini Metford, dress in khaki and pith helmet, find my gun bearer and head for the velt. Oren T



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  12. #32
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    Delays

    G'day again fellow casters,

    There has been a bit of a hold up on further testing for this cartridge/thread. We had a "Breakin" at the club recently and with me being the Club Secretary as you would imagine, I get to do all the running around to get things fixed.

    Well, as it turned out I get to do most of the work as well.

    I had all sorts of thoughts including dosing the idiots with mercarpin (I think thats how you spell it), blue dye with itching powder whatever just to make their day as miserable as possible.

    AND just to make the mix even harder, a week at work of split shifts.

    I should all be back on track by the end of this week then back into the testing. I think I will have to order another mold from Jim at CBE for therapy maybe the 120gr FP?

    Until then

    John

  13. #33
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    BAW, I see you aren't making my mistake and firing that beast with your thumb wrapped around the back of the action. I did it once - it's strange how a mouthful of blood can help you remember what not to do.

    Geoff

  14. #34
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    Well it appears as if it is time to bring this thread back to the fore again. Another member has acquired parts and assembled his .310". G'day Frank.

    I have just managed to acquire a second .310" which will need re-barreling but otherwise is A OK.

    It appears that our local sport shooting body, the SSAA is running a postal match shot at distances from 25 to 100 yards/metres. Several shooters in this area have expressed an interest in shooting this match. I hope to set it up at our local club soon.



    John.

  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master Four Fingers of Death's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigjohn View Post
    Trooperdan;
    Simplex, the company (I believe) went 'belly up' some years ago. I also believe someone in New South Wales is still producing their die sets. They also made a 5/8" set which I believe may have worked in the 310 tools. I will do further checking of sources here to find out what is available.John
    John, the Marden family are still running the family business out of the same factory they moved into some15+ years ago when they outgrew their old premises. I have been dealing with them since old Bill marden operated out of his garage in Punchbowl.

    They operate under the name 'Simplex Engineering.' I just bought a new Super Simplex press off them and had another refurbished for Floodgate. The reloading gear is a part of their business, but they do general engineering work in the main. Jansa Arms is their main outlet.

    The SuperSimplex dies are similar, but have a different thread than the Lyman 310 tools (which is a shame, I'm a big fan of 310s).

    Mick.
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  16. #36
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    BigJohn, Jeeze all I did was ask a few questions about the .310 cadet martini and look what I started. Anyway I'm glad I did. Seems there are a few "closet cadet" shooters out there. I dug in my junk box and managed to find a 38 cal bullet that will be used to slug the bbl. I'm kinda like a packrat as I tend to pick up the darndest stuff. While I'm at it will try to use a depth guage to see how long the chamber is. Those "Super" bullets remind me of the "schutzenplinker" bullets sold years ago. They had no gas check nor did they have and grease grooved. And were lunricated with some black substance. Supposedly they were good for about 1400fps if my brain cells are still working (CRS). Think the name of the company was alberts or something like that. Only saw a few boxes of different calibers, 30 and a few boxes of what looked like 300gr 45 cal rifle bullets. And I would like to thank all who have responded to my initial query about these fine little rifles. I all of us knew what we do know about them we would have bought them by the barrel. About the only problem my bbl has is a few rough spots in the rifling,but hopefully JB bore paste and "bore Brite" should slick it up a bit more. I fing the rear sight keaf hard to move up and down. I have a spare one floating around here somplace, when I find it will swap it out for the spare. The front sight on my bbl has a piece of either bronze or copper inserted where the front sight pyramd should be and it looks like the rear sight has had its "V" notch opened slighty. Frank

  17. #37
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    Frank46,
    Yep, we sure did open a can of worms when someone asks a question about these little rifles; must be something about them.

    I reckon that they are worth the effort in their original calibre no matter what. I hope the information provided is of some assistance to you.

    Good shootin',

    John.

  18. #38
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    BigJohn, yep it has caused me to stop and think about how many of these little rifles that are out there and the folks that shoot them rather than make them into some superduper bug buster. Still cleaning the bbl. Hopefully will be done tonight then will slug it to find out what I'm dealing with. Nice to be able to work on the bbl while it is off the receiver.

    Mick, you make mention of the simplex dies, by any chance do you know the thread size of these dies. Or could find out. I have a lyman nut cracker 310 loading set in 32-20 used it to load that cartridge for a lo-wall in the same caliber.
    Frank

  19. #39
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    Frank, SIMPLEX make die sets in 7/8 X 14. In the early days they also had a die set in 5/8" and some fine thread different to the 310 tools if my information is correct.

    Simplex are available through JANSA ARMS. Web address listed earlier in this thread.

    We still find their 5/8" die sets in the shops second hand and in varying condition.



    John.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master and Generous Donator
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    Frank:

    I've discussed the 5/8" dies for the smaller tool with Mick; he finds they are threaded 5/8" x 26 tpi, which is a British Standard Brass thread for pipe fittings. Taps and dies are (or used to be, when I was in that game years ago) available from the live-steam model RR suppliers. The Lyman / Ideal 5/8" x 30 tpi is a nutball size Ideal's John Barlow adopted from when he worked for Winchester around 1880; they used that size / pitch in their reloading tool dies. I shopped around, and found a 5/8" x 30 tap at MSC, but never found any threading dies in that size; though they could be cut on a lathe. But I can't see any practical way to adapt the older 5/8" x 26 Simplex dies to an Ideal tong tool. Mick has kindly located ont of the little Simplex bench tools and a set of dies (similar to the old Lyman Tru-Line Jr., but not a direct copy, and is sending it to me to play with. Stay tuned....

    floodgate
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check