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Thread: .310 Cadet Reloading 101, part 1

  1. #1
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    .310 Cadet Reloading 101, part 1

    G'day to the members and visitors to the board,

    Another member 'Paratus', put the "Cat in amongst the pigeons" when he revealed to those who read his thread that he has and shoots a Martini .310 Cadet Rifle. I as result of enquiries for the information I offered to members, I believe it will be easier to submit information in the form of a thread and conduct some tests with the cartridge and rifle combination while posting the results for all to see. I can chrono loads, benchrest out to 90 meteres at the club for accuracy comparison, try different lubes from within an initially small choice of brands, mainly LEE Liquid Alox and 50/50 Alox Beeswax (others if time permits).

    I have some experience and information for reloading this cartridge and a rifle which needs to be exercised. The cartridge itself is barely big enough to be considered a Rifle cartridge but makes a good childs training rifle, adults plinking rifle or suitable for small game at less than 100 yds. I do not hold out at this time much hope of good accuracy with my rifles barrel. While the rifling is sharp looking, the bore at one time was not cleaned properly (before my time with the rifle) and is dark. On the previous ocassions I shot this rifle, I did manage to hit the target with reasonable accuracy. I do have two original second hand, good clean cast boolit barrels on their way and they should be available before the end of the test cycle.

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    The cartridge itself is a straight tapered case approximately 1.075" long which work best IMO with a Heel Type Boolit weighing approximately 120 grains.

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    The above photo shows (left to right) SUPER Brand .310 cases, Bertram Bullet Co. .310 Cases and Super Brand swaged lead projectiles (non heel type) which will be used as the comparison standard in these tests.

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    These bullet molds (left to right) H. T. BUGG Mold and C. B. E. Mold will be used to cast the projectiles for these tests. I intend to use Wheel weight material and all projectiles will be dip lubed post loading.

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    I have and will use a locally produced dieset for loading this calibre. The set has been used in the past and gave good results.

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    The rear sight on my rifle and most others available is an excellent unit adjustable for both elevation and windage.

    The powders suggested in the Aussie reloading manuals are 2400, IMR 4227, REDDOT and UNIQUE. The powder charges are all small, almost pistol cartridge loads and those underlined are the powders I have available, right now.

    Powder Charges for .310" Cadet.
    Powder......Starting Load.....mv.............MAX. Load........mv
    2400.............7.....................1220....... .....8...................1320
    IMR 4227......9.....................1320..........11.. .................1500
    Red Dot.....3.5.....................1170............5. ..................1530
    Unique.........4.....................1200......... .......nil..

    A Aussie writer tried a charge of 16 3fg GOEX powder for an article in a locally published shooting magazine. If time permits I will try these loads.

    I will finish for now and update as I progress through the reloading/shooting cycle.

    Until then, cheers

    John.
    Last edited by Bigjohn; 07-02-2006 at 03:28 AM.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master



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    Great start to your project John! I am eager to see the rest. How much is the Simplex .310 die set?

    Are replacement cadet barrels widely available? Too bad recent changes in our import laws (I think) now restrict barrels. I need a few small parts for mine, sling swivels and butt plate screws on a couple.

    Is there any truth to the story that cleaning rods used to be issued with these rifles but the cadets were using blanks to shoot them at each oterh so the rods were withdrawn? And was a bayonet ever issued for the .310? I've seen pictures of a full patch round loaded during WWII as part of the preparation against a Japanese invasion, or so I heard.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    310

    Big John you might want to also try win 296,my cadet would not group at all so I tried some out of curiosity and at 10 grains all the boolits went thru the same hole.I used C.B.E's mold with a card wad over the powder. You might want to check out the scores at the national shoots, some of them are jaw dropping!!!. Pat

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    Replies to responses

    Trooperdan;
    Simplex, the company (I believe) went 'belly up' some years ago. I also believe someone in New South Wales is still producing their die sets. They also made a 5/8" set which I believe may have worked in the 310 tools. I will do further checking of sources here to find out what is available.

    Since recent changes to the firearms laws in this country, many people who had these rifles just sitting in the cupboard are now selling them cheaply to gundealers. The good ones are placed up for sale and the poor ones are being taken down for parts.

    If you have a list of parts needed I could look out for them and let you know. I have a small quanity here including the parts mentioned.

    The 310 never had a cleaning rod but the predecessor 297/230 did (There is one in a local shop minus cleaning rod). There were no bayonets issued for the 310 to my knowledge. Nowhere to hang them on the rifles I have seen. 'J' ammunition was produced and issued, which I believe lead to the demise of a large number of the original calibre, corrosive.

    PAT303;
    I do not doudt that the 310" will shoot given good care and cleaning, good fodder and a steady hand with good eye.
    The present barrel on mine was not cared for as it should have been and I would have if I received it before the damage was done, BUT I have not written it off yet! I will see what it can do with the loads produced and then compare it against a cleaner barrel when I get them.

    I have some Win 296 in the cupboard so I will include your load in the test run.


    LATE BREAKING NEWS
    Apparently, some years ago, LAWERENCE ORDNANCE sold some brand new barrels for the cadet rifles, still in the grease. Well, I have just now received one, and hope to fit it to an action for testing.
    I will take some photo's today and post them later, also planning on the casting session today to stock up the boolits needed for the tests.

    cheers for now,

    John
    Last edited by Bigjohn; 07-02-2006 at 08:16 PM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Mold
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    310 Cadet Bayonet

    There was actually a bayonet for the cadet rifle it was a small spike bayonet that
    locked on behind the front sight I believe, they are about as rare as hens teeth but one sold in the last Melbourne Gun auction.
    Big John try 4grs of AP50 behind your CBE projectile as that is the load I use and it shoots 1" at 50Mtrs also 5 grs AP70 is a good load and AP100 should be good with a little better load density than the AP50 so may be worth the effort

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    Moderator Emeritus JeffinNZ's Avatar
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    BIGJOHN: Are you planning to run some BP down that tube?
    Doesn't Jim make the dinkiest little moulds!? They are great.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    310

    It's funny how in this day of wsm's wssm's hyper velocity killim' at a mile guns that a little thing like a cadet can get so much interest. I feel sorry for balistic only shooters,there missing out on all the fun. Pat

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Bad Ass Wallace's Avatar
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    I've load for the 310 for many years and settled on the CBE 120gn .317 bullet which is not a healed base type.

    I load 4.5gn AP70 which gives just over 1000fps.

    There is another "variation" of the 310 that seldom gets mention, many rifles had the chamber reamed and extractor cut deepened to accept the standard 32/20 Winchester. I've found that so altered you have a case that is parallel sided and about 3mm longer than the .310.

    This round can be loaded with 310 dies and fired with 5.5gn AP70 for 1200fps. Apart from the headstamp, folks get excited when I tell them it is a 310 Magnum
    Hold Still Varmint; while I plugs Yer!

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    .310 Cadet Reloading 101, Part 2

    Well, the results are in on part one. Yesterdays casting session required the breaking in of two new molds (well they did sit on the shelf for several years before yesterday ) and then down to some serious casting. Once I had the cadance sorted out, juggling two molds at once became easy and set up a good production rate.

    The only drawback was the 10 pound capacity of the LEE pot (need a BIGGER one), so I can now introduce some of the stars of this thread.

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    Now for the individual details;

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    The CBE 113.6 grain Heel type Boolit; OAL is 0.60", Shank diameter is .308" and the Groove diameter is .320" as cast from wheel weights.

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    The BUGG 135.8 grain Heel type Boolit; OAL is 0.706", Shank diameter is .309" and the Groove diameter is .316" as cast from wheel weights.

    Due to the lateness of the day when I commenced casting, I will cast some more today to build up a reasonable supply for the loading tests. (As the number of members personal load data being posted is enlarging the testing regime somewhat.)

    I mentioned yesterday that I had just received what appears to be a brand new unused original barrel from a friend who bought one some years ago when they were being sold for about $25.00 AUD through Lawerence Ordnance. I cleaned the grease and paper from the outside but left the grease in the barrel. It has a few marks on the outside but no rust and the grease is packed into the bore.

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    I took several photo's this morning but this is the only one which was in focus. I will redo the others later. (Rear sight and Muzzle.)

    Well, cheers for now,

    John.
    Last edited by Bigjohn; 07-03-2006 at 09:34 PM.

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    Responses to replies, 2

    mech481; I was not aware of these bayonets and this is the first I have heard of them. It would have to be simular to a socket bayonet and lock in around the fore sight.
    I have noted your load with AP50; the original purpose of this thread is to help our friends across the waters to load and shoot the ex-pat. rifle they have hence the American powders mentioned. I know ADI sell their powders under different labels over there but I am not aware as to what names they bear.

    JeffinNZ; If times permits I will run some BP loads. I may need to change barrels for best results.
    Yes, Jim does make some good molds; I have several and they work well for me.

    PAT303; Ssssh!; we do not want them finding out about the fun they are missing out on. This could create a demand for the lower velocity rifles.
    Besides I don't think you can get cast boolits to hold together at those velocities.

    BAW; I have heard that some rifles would take a 32/20 cartridge with out modification. I have tried several but never been luckly I guess.
    Besides; do I detect a hint of a simular sense of humour ,I ahve been known to slip a BP load into a Marlin 45/70 with some lite loads just to see the look on their faces 310 magnum indeed; but hey it is amazing what some folk will believe if you tell'em.

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    I close with the photo's of the new barrel and the original workhorse.

    cheers for now,
    John.

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy gregg's Avatar
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    Smile

    Keep it comeing . Looks like fun to me.

  12. #12
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    Allow me to toss a few Stateside morsels into the pot.

    I have a mate in NSW and somehow..hehe...a couple Cadets managed to swim over. They actually swim quite well due to the fact they morph into motorcycle parts.

    Anyway, I began playing with the 310 and like most everybody here, tried to do so using 32-20 components.......which resulted in poor results. First the bore has 5 lands and grooves and is damned near impossible to get an accurate measurement of the internal diameter unless the slug is measured in a V block. I found an old gentleman who did this.....his name is O. H. McKeegan as I recall (he has since quit). My bore measured .3178. Therefore, I think the Bugg mold mentioned above is worthless unless your bore is tighter than mine.

    Bullet molds available here are useless. They were either undersized and none were heeled...RCBS does offer one...if you can find one. Finally, I gave up 32-20 dies and a set of excellent Simplex dies swam over and I ordered one of Jim's 130 grain heeled bullet molds.....a super product. My rifle will accept the thicker 32-20 rim...many won't. So, I trim 32-20 brass and use it. My preferred powder is 2400. While the Cadet action is hell for stout, it has almost NO extraction force. if the load gets warm, the case will stick. I started with 8 grs. of 2400 and worked up. cases would begin sticking at 12 grains. So, i backed off to 10 grains and called it good. Velocity is decent.....don't recall exactly what from memory..made no difference anyway. it shoots well, cases pop right out and accuracy is excellent. i shoot the bullets as cast at .320.

    My suggestion is to buy a CBE mold and proper dies and forget jacking around with makeshift dies and molds if you expect happy results. The .310 is an excellent cartridge and somebody did their homework well when they designed it long ago. Just too bad martini failed in designing a better extraction system.
    I'm shufflin' thru the Texas sand..... but my head's in Mississippi

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    Jump:

    "First the bore has 5 lands and grooves and is damned near impossible to get an accurate measurement of the internal diameter unless the slug is measured in a V block. I found an old gentleman who did this.....his name is O. H. McKeegan as I recall (he has since quit). My bore measured .3178. Therefore, I think the Bugg mold mentioned above is worthless unless your bore is tighter than mine."

    His name is O. H. McKagen, and he DOES still mike odd-numbered slugs for the price of return postage. I've got his address somewhere, but can't find it just now. A query through the American Single Shot Rifle Association's website will turn up his address, though, and I think he has posted his offer in "The Fouling Shot" recently.

    NEI used to list a proper mould for the .310 Cadet; has anyone here tried one?

    floodgate
    NOV SHMOZ KA POP?

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by floodgate
    Jump:

    "First the bore has 5 lands and grooves and is damned near impossible to get an accurate measurement of the internal diameter unless the slug is measured in a V block. I found an old gentleman who did this.....his name is O. H. McKeegan as I recall (he has since quit). My bore measured .3178. Therefore, I think the Bugg mold mentioned above is worthless unless your bore is tighter than mine."

    His name is O. H. McKagen, and he DOES still mike odd-numbered slugs for the price of return postage. I've got his address somewhere, but can't find it just now. A query through the American Single Shot Rifle Association's website will turn up his address, though, and I think he has posted his offer in "The Fouling Shot" recently.

    NEI used to list a proper mould for the .310 Cadet; has anyone here tried one?

    floodgate
    Floodgate, the reason I ASSUMED he has quit was due to some correspondence I had with Mr. McKagen. I asked him what was required to make the measurements and if he would teach me how, in order that the procedure wouldn't be lost to the fraternity. He told me he had given his measuring (V) blocks to somebody due to the fact he was moving to a retirement home and just didn't have room for them. This was shortly after he had measured my Cadet slug. I must now assume that he didn't give his stuff away and for that, I am glad to know. He is well into his 80's and a super fine gentleman.
    I'm shufflin' thru the Texas sand..... but my head's in Mississippi

  15. #15
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    Now we are talking classic rifles and ammunition here. The .310" cadet is up there with all the great and magical "rook rifle" calibres.

    Currently I'm shooting an early Westley Richards Francote action Cadet sent to NSW prior to confederation.

    My best load to date is 10 gns of Viht N110 under the RCBS heeled bullet 120gns as cast tumble lubed in Lee liquid Alox in Buffalo arms cases, reworked 32-20.

    I have also tried the Alliant powders Red dot, Unique and 2400, they all worked but the Vhitavuori was the clear winner. Haven't chronoed them yet.

    The cases are fire formed and then not resized at all, the bullet is hand seated into the case, all I do is de and reprime.

    5 shots will all touch at 50 yrds.

    They shoot them at 200yrds at Bisley and if the wind is kind they will score with the best of them on the Tin Hat target.

    My Westley Richards groups well as described but shoots to the right, it has the older ladder sight which is not windage adjustable so no good for the competitions, Ho Hum!

    Need to get one of my BSAs out and make time to get it shooting.

    Good luck with yours Big John and enjoy the journey.

    Must get a CBE mould they do look nice, I have a set of CH-4D dies for the 310 cadet, nice dies, but never use them now.


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    Update 1

    G'day again;

    When I started this thread, I believed that it would draw a few of the closet 310 Cadet owners out into the light; and it has.

    The casting sessions went well and I now have a good supply of both projectiles, two more good cast boolit shooting barrels are on the way, pick up next week, (they still have their receivers attached and under Australin laws, I would have to by them each as a rifle if I picked them up as is).

    As I spent most of today in town shopping prior to starting night shift (damn), not much else was done. Cases needed a session in the tumbler so that's what is happening right now.

    While arranging to have the receivers removed from the barrels, another 310 shooter and I started discussing the project. He informed me that some dies are designed around the inside lubricated bullet not the heel type and as a result resize the projectile while crimping the case.
    As I only have access to SIMPLEX DIES; I will watch for this and report. If he is correct it would appear that the modern equipment caters for the modern type of boolit only.

    This would lead to a lot of people being very disappointed in the performance of their 310's and considering changing their calibre. This is one of the reasons behind my rifle sitting in the cupboard for some years until now.
    An experiment I tried back then with a .32 cal. (.314") SWC GC projectile seated in the case, grossly extended the neck area. The result looked like a goblet (had a smaller diameter immediately behing the end of the seated projectile.

    These loads were dismal in their performance and caused several cases to split on firing.

    I will be quiet for about a week until I finish night shift then report back with further information.

    cheers for now,

    John.
    Last edited by Bigjohn; 07-05-2006 at 04:25 AM.

  17. #17
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    Sources.

    G'day again Casters,

    I have been doing some research for to answer some enquiries raised here and via emails.

    The die set I am using is an Australian made set by SIMPLEX. They are still available and cost $100.00 AUD; shellholder $14.00AUD.
    JANSA Arms is handling these sets and can be contacted;

    http://www.jansa.com.au

    They informed me that they also sell BERTRAM Brass for the .310" Cadet and that die sets are in stock.

    Jim Allison at Cast Bullet Engineering is currently producing molds suitable for these cartridges.

    http://www.castbulletengineering.big...om/default.htm

    Anyone wishing to follow up with these people can do so at their leisure.
    As I start night shift tonight and working 12 and one half hour shift I will not be able to do anymore with this thread until the 14th. of this month.

    cheers until then,

    John.

  18. #18
    Boolit Mold
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    A good supplier for bertram Brass is also Sunraysia Shooters Supplies cheaper than most of the other middlemen ( p&akeogh@ncable.com.au ) this is his e-mail address I know pat has been sending brass to the UK at very competitive prices.

  19. #19
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    Cool

    G'day again everybody;
    Well, I'm back on deck after the night shift, I managed some research when I had a quiet moment.

    One piece of information I need to post now is a caution on the case length; in the 'Handloader' January/February 1989 #137, commencing on page 32 is an article by Ben Johnson - Resurrecting a Martini Cadet. On page 34. mention is made of the length of case.
    George C. Nonte Jr. in the book Cartridge Conversions mentions the length I used in the first posting of this thread (1.075"); a KYNOCH sample case measured by Johnson (1.02"); a sample case he had produce measured (1.105") and the dimension drawing on the page mentions (1.120").

    This would be enough to make some of the diligent reloaders amongst us start pulling their hair out.
    I have some unused SUPER brand cases which average (1.095") and some BERTRAM cases which average (1.105").

    From past experience; I have noticed variations in case length with factory produced ammunition for these rifles and only one which failed to chamber in the rifle. That casing was found to be 1/8" longer than all others in that batch; it would not chamber as a load round but did once the projectile had been removed.

    It would from this observation appear that these rifles can be very forgiving of variations with the ammunition but one would need to ensure that their loads will chamber before loading many rounds and then getting to the range to find they will not.

    I will post more details as the reloading proceeds.

    cheers for now.

    John.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    The main issue is that you might load something to suit one rifle and find it is a bit over-length for another rifle, resulting in some very high pressures being developed even though the round will chamber. My 30-30 multigroove does not have a conventional throat - instead the neck-clearance section of the chamber continues right up to the beginning of a very short lede of only .057". Maximum case length that will chamber, loaded or unloaded, is 2.178" compared with a SAAMI case length of 2.040". When I first discovered this I thought I'd let my cases grow without trimming them, but then I got to thinking about the possibility that I might die one day (well, it happens) and some poor fool might buy a few hundred loaded 30-30s from my heirs and successors, chamber them in a SAAMI-length chamber, and blow his head off. It would be my fault if that happened. So, I made a gauge to SAAMI dimensions, and I swipe each case each time I size them, trimming if necessary.

    In my opinion you should worry about what the chamber length of other .310 Cadets might be, and ensure that any cartridge you load will be safe in the shortest chamber in town.

    Geoff

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check