12 ga paradox help ! Slug or RB loads.

[Dixie Slugs]

Now! You are getting to the important first point in designing the proper combo for ball'bullet to the smoothbore!As to just how hard, or soft, an oversize ball/bullet should be in a smoothbore...is still open!
We know what Greeener, and the rest, said over a hundred years ago about a harden ball....Slip Fit!
Dixie has specialized for some years with hard cast heat treated slugs...period. We are not going to go to soft lead since it has been proven to us that it just does not perform what our
teat treated bullets do! This rules out much, for us much of what the hobbyist can play with in smoothbores. Since I refuse to deal with speculation, I just do not know what would be safe with oversize balls/bullets in smoothbores.....James

[nitro450exp]

Turbo,

It's done. I used the soft slugs you sent me.
The right barrels slugs at 0.727" the left barrel at 0.726"
The soft slugs and ball went in pretty easy, using a small finish hammer and 1/2" dowel.
I did one of the harder slugs, and there was a noticeable difference in effort required.
All of your slugs are WW alloy correct ?
The difference is quenched and non quenched correct ?
What is the BNH of each ?

I tried to measure the minor diameter on the choke tube, it's about 0.720" which would mean 0.005" depth, does this seem reasonable ?
This was difficult to measure, so I will take it to work and see if we have any gauges that big, I think we do.
Either way I am looking at 0.003" and 0.0035" engraving or less, I hope this is enough to stabilize the slugs and balls.

What is the weight of the round balls ?
If is use surrogate data from shot tables how much should I back off ?
You mention using 1 3/8 oz data for your round balls, is that a hot load ?

Thanks
Nitro450exp

[turbo1889]

My soft lead slugs are nearly pure lead - not pure lead - nearly pure lead. The BHN is about 6 to 7. If they were pure lead they would have a BHN of 5 just a touch harder then pure lead.

My hard lead slugs are water drop quenched WW alloy with a BHN of about 14 to 16 so there is indeed a major difference in hardness between the two. It is not just a matter of quenched or not quenched.

Due to the fact that they are HB foster slugs they will stabilize even if the rifled choke doesn't grab them and give them any spin and they just strip. The soft lead ones may actually bump back up to 730 upon reaching the rifled choke but they are also more likely to strip then the hard ones. The only way to tell will be to shoot them and see. Knowing your bore dimensions I personally would not hesitate to shoot the soft lead slugs or the balls - hard or soft. Your mileage may vary of course.

The hard lead foster slugs have a bit of a squeeze to fit the bore, whether it is too much squeeze or not is debatable. I have personally fired my hard lead slugs in a rifled barrel for a switch barrel pump gun as tight as 0.727" without any issues and my gut tells me that it shouldn't be any thing different with squeezing them down that far in a smooth bore but it’s your gun and your call.

As far as loading data is concerned the balls weigh in at just a little less then 1-3/8oz and that is why I used 1-3/8oz. lead shot load data as a starting point for developing my loads. As Dixie can confirm if you use equal weight lead shot load data to load slugs the pressure of the load normally does not increase, in fact the opposite normally occurs especially if you are using a stable burning heavy field type powder. Some of the fast burning target load powders and some of the ball powders can get a little hairy but as long as you stay away from them and stick with non-ball heavy field powders especially the more stable Alliant and IMR powders this works pretty well. Stated another way - there is no need to back off when you load via. equivalent weight lead shot load data you are already backed off a little. It is possible to work up most loads a few grains more when substituting an equal weight slug for shot. Leave it just as it is and not try to work it up is safest of course - kind of like shooting start loads only with metallic cartridge reloading and never bothering to work up the load to max.

I should also note that my slugs are “as cast” and are not sized with a sizer die like regular cast boolits mainly due to the additional expense of a custom push through sizer die and the extra labor that would be involved with sizing them. Plus Brooks did a very nice job making my custom mold and the size of the slugs as cast is very suitable for my needs and holds very tight to the dimension I specified when I ordered the mold (0.730"). In our communications you have discussed the possibility of you getting a custom mold made to exactly fit the bore diameter of your gun. Sizing down a slug 3 to 4 thousandths of an inch is completely possible with a push through sizing die and is commonly done on much smaller diameter cast boolits where it represents a greater percentage of the boolits diameter. Thus a custom sizing die may be a better idea then a custom mold and you could take just about any diameter slug you wanted from 0.727" up to about 0.740" and then just simply size them down to fit your guns bore.

Oh, yes, the soft lead balls you used to slug your bores. They can certainly be loaded and shot. A second trip down the bore is no big deal since they are soft nearly pure lead they will bump up slightly under the acceleration forces during firing and fit the bore just as tightly as they would have if they were virgin. In fact I've been known to reload hard balls recovered from my boolit trap after washing and re-lubing them if they are still nice and round rather then melting them down and re-casting them. Not so lucky with soft lead balls they turn into silver dollars when they hit the boolit trap.

Again, another edit for extra info, your 0.720" as the minor diameter for the rifling in your rifled choke tube sounds typical for an off the shelf rifled choke tube. I absolutely agree that that is a little shallow on the rifling but you have to use what is available. If it were up to me a rifled choke tube would have six point Newtonian Ratchet Rifling with a gain twist starting from straight rifling to 1/96" twist with the major diameter at 0.729" and the minor diameter at 0.700" for 12ga. and the same thing only with straight to 1/66" gain twist and major diameter at 0.623" and the minor diameter at 0.600" for the 20ga. The tubes would be extended ones of course with as much lip as possible to bear against the shotguns muzzle to try to help prevent over-tightening and a tube of anti-seize included in the box with the choke tubes and directions very explicitly directing its use. They would also have a generous internal bell taper on the screw end to ensure that if the gun they were used in had a larger bore diameter then the major diameter of the rifling you wouldn’t have a lip produced in the bore. All this has been discussed before on this forum in past threads of course and the basic features and dimensions of a “correctly built” rifled choke tube is not wholly my idea by any means. Unfortunately, without mega bucks investment such ideas never get off the drawing board.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Another consideration is .. "What will your intended shooting range be ? " With a smoothbore barrel shooting RB gets a bit iffy for sure ball placement past 50 Yards on even deer size targets. If you are going to be Up close and personal then RB is a very easy and simple load to go with .

[nitro450exp]

Hello,

Thank you everyone for the input and loads of information.
I will play around this weekend and barring any excitement will report the results.
The yardages I plan on shooting will be 10 yds to 60 yds, my acreage is heavilly wooded and I have not cut any shooting lanes.
Most of the deer I have taken, have fallen at 10 to 20 yds to date.
It is possible to thread the needle and get 60 - 75 yds, but we will have to see how the tragectory works out, also bear in mind I am using open express sights.
I will post some pictures of the rig and slugs of the bore this weekend.

Turbo,
As you stated the soft slugs flatten pretty quickly, I will definitely look into a sizer die and play with the hard casts you sent me. I like the idea of the harder bullets for penetration and bone breaking, not that at 10 yds will make a huge difference.

I will keep everyone posted.
Thanks Again
Nitro450exp

[turbo1889]

You should talk to "Buckshot" on this forum. He makes custom push through sizing dies to fit reloading presses. From my understanding he can make big ones that fit the big thread on the press that the bushing threads into that has the smaller threads in it to fit regular reloading dies.

I would suggest you have him make 0.726" for two reasons; first there is a little bit of bounce back when you size hard lead boolits so sizing hard lead slugs in a 0.726" size die will mean they will probably come out the other end at somewhere in-between 0.726" and 0.727". Secondly, you can always lap out a sizing die to make it size bigger but it is awful hard if not impossible to add material and make it size smaller.

I would also suggest that you have him make the plunger part of the sizing die a fairly tight fit - something like 0.720" to 0.724" giving him a fairly generous 0.004" tolerance range. When sizing HB slugs in a nose first sizer with the plunger pushing on the base having the sizing plunger be a tight fit is important.

[nitro450exp]

I PM'ed Buckshot and am waiting for a reply.
Also placed a WTB in the Vendor Buy and Sell forum.
Just waiting for repplies.

Thanks again.
Nitro

[tommygirlMT]

Not trying to hijack the thread but here is what I am thinking.

Tusker nose with 0.730" driving bands (could be larger) and 0.600" body and with same Tusker hollow base.

The idea being the driving bands will easily swage to fit undersize barrels or to go through chokes.

Longbow

Personally I don't think thin driving bands or even lengthwise grooves like found on rifled slugs will ever work satisfactorly to make tight bore and choke safe hard lead slugs --- by the time you make the bands or ribs thin enough for them to work as desired you have fill out problems. If you could somehow cast the bands or grooves of soft lead and the body of the slug with hard lead thin it would work -- but I don't know how one could possibly do that.

I think a built up design using a softer material such as plastic, rubber, or paper to make the driving bands is the only workable solution --- like take your design you posted as an attachment and make it 680 diameter and make three grooves in the body that O-rings snap into to bring it up to full bore diameter.

Here is an idea I have had for a while but have yet to actually have a mold made to produce them that uses nitro cards.



Long story short I think a built up design is the only way to make a tight barrel and choke safe smooth bore slug that is full bore diameter and is hard cast.

[tommygirlMT]

Just checked some O-ring size charts. Size #015 rings with the internal diameter of the grooves they snapped into set at 600 would probably do the trick --- provided they will stretch enough to slip over a 680 body diameter. Size #016 could be used as well possibly but they are a bit too big --- probably would be best to stretch a smaller size to a little bit bigger then try to use a size that is too big and squeeze it down.

The Metric size M1x16.5 would be an even better match to the desired finished outside diameter but the fact that they are much thinner probably makes them not suitable since I believe at least half the ring needs to be inside the slug body to keep the ring from stripping off the slug body in the forcing cone.

[longbow]

tommygirlMT:

While I agree that the built up slug is a good idea (Dupleks slugs are similar in principle: http://www.ddupleks.lv/EN/articles/s...eel-advantages), I have to disagree that ribs or driving bands will not work.

I have a copy of an article written by Ross Seyfried describing his success with an original Paradox gun. He says it is a "thin-barreled, light, apparently ordinary 12 ga. game gun" with choked ratchet rifling that swages a 700+ gr. bullet down from 0.736" to 0.690" and gives it a spin of 1:36" in choke of about 3" long.

I had always thought Paradox guns had slow round ball twists but apparently this one didn't.

The bullet is designed with two thin driving bands and a very large annular groove around the middle which is used for two purposes ~ to crimp the hull and to give the displaced lead a place to go.

Also, Brenneke, Gualandi and a few other bore size slugs use the thin rib principle to allow shooting through chokes ~ maybe not recommended but safe to do.

As for built up slugs, something like the Dupleks slug swould not be easy to make at home but your o-ring idea could result in a similar functionality. I have my doubts that o-rings would survive the journey down the barrel on a bore diameter slug as they would tend to roll but if the slug was made to fit into a shotcup so the o-rings gave a snug fit when the shotcup was inserted into the barrel that might be a keeper.

While I like bore size slugs, I am admitting defeat in my smoothbore testing with full bore Fosters and attached wad slugs. I have had better success with attached wad slugs that fit into shotcups. I am not sure why but the shotcup seems to give guidance or support as the slug enters the forcing cone. Since it is earier to load than a plastic gas seal and a bunch of card wads it is also an obvious choice.

I suspect that with a couple of driving bands (kinda like the Lyman sabot slug) it would also do well in a rifled barrel.

Longbow

[Dixie Slugs]

We have really beat this one to death! It reminds me of all the posts about the Dixie Tusker when we had it in the line!
Bottom line is simple indeed! If you want a hard cast heat treated hollow base slug or a hard cast round ball in a smoothbore.....let it have a barrel that the ball/slug is a slip fit (whatever the guns barrel is) and no choke.
If you want to shoot slugs in a choked gun.....use some of the Fosters, etc.
You must read Ross' work very careful and see what he is really saying! In Volume 10 - Issue 4...he did some outstanding work on reloading Paradox and Ball guns. You should note what he says about guns that were set up for brass vs paper hulls in reference to bore/groove.
The hobbyist will continue the try various designs. However, to keep it simple one should read the comments here. There has been a ton of work going all the way back to Greener. .....and the principles still remains.......soft balls/slugs in choked smoothbore barrels and hard cast in rifled barrels or cylinder barrels.chokes. It is really that simple in the long run!...James

[longbow]

Just to be clear here, I am not advocating that people should make a habit of shooting full bore slugs through tight chokes or that one should expect accuracy if doing so.

I am saying I think it is a good idea to account for the possibility that a full bore slug could find its way into a gun with a tight choke.

As a caster and reloader, I can control what gets into my guns and ensure that I don't blow a choke off but a commercial mould maker or supplier of slugs does not have the luxury of controlling the use of the final product.

Many people have a bad habit of not reading instructions or warnings then going and getting a lawyer to bail them out when they do something they shouldn't have.

In my case, if I can make a slug that gives acceptable accuracy and will also be safe to shoot through a choke, that is the slug I will use. There is no chance of damaging a gun or shooter then.

Longbow

[nitro450exp]

Hello all, including hijackers.

Had a good weekend the soft 0.730" slugs shot very well in the gun.
No pressure or crazyness.
The soft RB 0.735" also seemed OK but only had 4 to shoot, so could not get any real work done.

I will be getting more soon, so look for another report.

The 1 1/4 oz slugs produced an 8" verticle string and 3" wide group ( 2 different shooters ) I can tighten it up to 5 and 2 with one shooter.
The right barrel shoots low and the left is spot on, hence the 5" verticle.
The sights are dead on at 55 yds with a 6 oclock hold, got lucky since the were originally made for the 45-70 tubes.
Can't do anything about the verticle since it is a SXS, just have to use the left first and if it is still standing, aim 4" high for the right.

I ordered a sizer die, so I will size the harder slugs down to bore size and try those, the slugs are loose in the case mouth, had to put a heavy crimp to hold them, pressure is so low it doesn't even take the whole crimp out, and when I size the cases there is barely any contact at the base on the sizer die.
20 grains of 700x works good, need to put some over the chrony.
I may try 25 grains of 800x and see what that does to group size.

Will take some pics and update soon.
I have ordered more slugs and balls, look for another report soon.

Nitro450exp

[Greg5278]

I have only used 700X for super mild loads. I would guess thta your load with 20 grains is a bit anemic, possibly even subsonic with your hravy bullet. I think 17gr gave my 410gr bullet 1200 FPS. IMR 4756 might be better for you, or 7625 depending on how fast you want to push it.
You need to get a load with consistent chamber pressure, if you are on the low end it could be stringing the group.
Greg

[nitro450exp]

I will have to chrony them and see.
I expect based on the IMR book that they would be around 1200 fps.
Maybe a little under recoil was very mild, 21 grains was a little more stout.
Since I am using rifled chokes with a 1:36" twist, I do not want to push them too fast.
I am concerned that the rifeling will strip at the higher speeds.
I shot Rem. Sabot Copper solids at around 1500 - 1600 Fps and they tumbled bad at 17 yds.
This is just the starting point, thanks for the advice, I will investigate other powders.
The wad column is holding the powder pretty tight, is that a problem with other powders ?




Thanks
Nitro450exp

[Greg5278]

If you want a mild load, I was given a pressure tested one for a vinatge Paradox gun with smokless powder. It is as follows 2.5" federal paper case, Win 209 primer, 22.0grain Alliant Unique powder, .135" nitro card, .625" cork, 740gr paradox style bullet,
980 FPS at 6960 PSI.
Thanks to Tom Armbrust at Ballistic research for the load. I have another one somewhere around here.I also have a Subsonic load for my 880 grain slug at 1047 FPS with Longshot.

I think you need abullet with maximum bearing surface, not with a alot of wide grease grooves.
I would stick with slower powders: IMR 4756 for 650gr and less, and IMR 4759 for heavier slugs. IMR 4227 could be used, but only in large charges for really heavy slugs, 1000gr and up.

Perhaps a slug in a steel shot wad would work? I have some, but have not tried them in a rifled tube. They shoot fine in a rilfed barrel.
Greg

[nitro450exp]

Well Hello Again,

Buckshot came thru for me, even though he had an equipment failure.
My custom LEE type inser sizer die arrived today.
This will allow me to size the slugs from Turbo down from 0.730" to 0.726"
for a bore sized fit, this will not give me allot of choke engagement,
Grooves are 0.730" and lands are ~ 0.724".

After I size a few I will push then through the choke and see how the engraving looks.
Of all the rounds fired so far I have not been able to recover a single round.
Either in the tree or too deep in the soil to find.
I have ordered some more cards and Wads (non Lubed) they should be here soon.
I will keep you posted when I get going again, hopefully in the next few weeks.

Regards
Nitro

[nitro450exp]

Hello,

Update time.

Well "Buckshot" came through for me, the sizer die is perfect.

I sized some of the Dixie Slugs I had and the slugs from Turbo.
They come out at around 0.726" - 0.0005.
When droped down the right barrel the slide almost all the way to the choke.
I pushed the slug to the choke with a dowel and minmal hand pressure.
Left barrel is a little tighter, they slide 1/4 of the way and minimal pressure with the dowel gets the slug a couple of inches from the choke. Medium hand pressure gets it the last few inches.

I then drove them through the choke with the dowel and mallet, engraving looks OK, I was worried the choke would not get a good bite.
The best measurement I could get was 0.722" on the grooves, so about 0.002" engraving on the rifeling.
We will just have to see if it is enough or they strip, If I keep velocity in the 1200 ~ 1400 range I think I will be OK.

Well the only 11ga wads I have are lubricated, and they are messy, so I have 1000 non lubed coming, and some more nitro cards and some over shot cards.
In order to get the slug in the case with the top band on the crimp I was using 2x nitro cards 1x wad, card, wad, 2x cards.
So I was going through wads and cards pretty fast.
The other combo was 3 cards 3 wads, alternating then slug.

I may try a card on top of the slug so I do not have to crimp the brass so heavilly.
Slug = 0.726" brass case mouth = 0.750" so I am having to crimp 0.012" to hold the slug in the case.
I don't think this will do case life any favours.
Also the crimp remains after firing so reloading is a pain.
I made a sizer plug to open the mouth of the case some for reloading, but I am goint to end up work hardening the mouths, can you say aneal time.

Wads will be here end of the week I hope, I will let you know the progress.

Cheers
Nitro

[nitro450exp]

Hello,

Here is a slug crimped in a paper hull.




I had to make my own tool.
Works pretty good.
Was out of town last week, hope to get some load work done soon.

Cheers
Nitro

[nitro450exp]

Hello,

I mentioned erlier I would post some pics of the gun.
I made and added the sight base and 1/4 rib.
The front bead is marbles and rear sight is Dakota (Narrowed to match the rib)
Here you go.
I hope to get some loading and shooting done soon!!!!






Thanks
Enjoy
Nitro