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Thread: 12 ga paradox help ! Slug or RB loads.

  1. #1

    12 ga paradox help ! Slug or RB loads.

    Hello,

    This is the setup !
    12ga 2 3/4" SXS Remington SPR220.
    Sights added ( 1/4 rib with Dakota express sight, front base with Marbles bead )
    Colonial extended rifled choke tubes 0.730 groove diameter.

    I want to try RB but know nothing about shottie loading.
    I assume a 0.730 ~ 0.732 RB or slug is what I want.
    I want to use Magtech brass and crimp using RCBS Comboy dies.
    I plan to use 11 ga wads and cards.
    I also want to try Dixie slugs.

    Any advice would be appreciated !

    Here are a few questions.
    Will the dixie slug fit in the magtech brass ?
    Is my slug and RB size correct ? ( 0.002 interference with choke )
    Has anyone used Colonial tubes with RB and slugs ?

    Thanks in advance.

    Nitro450exp
    "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall
    DRSS
    Whomper's Club
    BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa)
    470 NE DR
    45-70 DR
    12 ga Paradox
    450 NE SR
    20 ga. DR (Project)

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    Well, I can't answer many of your questions ~ at least completely but...

    I have used 0.735" round ball quite successfully in a smoothbore with 0.729" bore. It seems a lot oversize but before loading any I used a dowel and mallet to get a "feel" for how much effort it takes to swage a ball by 0.006" to fit the bore. The answer was - not much. 0.006" off the equator of a ball is not much meat.

    I figure it takes more pressure to rifle a full bore slug as it does to swage a few thou off a ball. Just opinion without a pressure test but I am betting that is right.

    I have also shot the same loads in a Remington 870 rifled bore with 0.727" groove so the ball was much oversize but again, no problems or pressure signs and recovered balls showed a nicely rifled "belt".

    Having said that, you probably wouldn't go wrong using 0.732" or so as long as your bore is at least as large as the groove diameter of the choke tubes. It likely wouldn't do accuracy any good to be shooting slugs/balls through a 0.728" or 0.729" bore then into a choke tube at 0.730".

    There are some posts on this forum by Adam64 where he has documented 0.735" round ball loads through a rifled choke tube. He was getting pretty good success. You will find them if you do a search.

    FWIW

    Longbow

  3. #3
    Thanks
    I will do a search.

    I have requested some dixie slugs and will use them to check the soothbore,
    I am hoping they slide freely or with little resistance down the smooth bore portion and only engrave when they get to the choke.
    The dixie slug has several band and are hard cast, so I do not want too much engraving / rifeling action.

    I will get some 0.735 RB and do the same test, I agree the engraving aroung the equator of the RB, should be OK with 0.005 interference.
    Any Ideas on who sells 0.735 RB already cast ?
    I have no time to cast at this stage in my life.

    Regards
    Nitro450exp
    "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall
    DRSS
    Whomper's Club
    BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa)
    470 NE DR
    45-70 DR
    12 ga Paradox
    450 NE SR
    20 ga. DR (Project)

  4. #4
    Boolit Designer 45 2.1's Avatar
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    Ross Seyfried did an article on an original paradox rifled shotgun useing the original mold and tools. From that he found that all his previous experiments were flawed. He had been useing oversize slugs. What he found was that he had to use a 0.001" or so undersize to bore slug to get the accuracy out of it. Keep in mind here that the original paradox shotguns had a rifled section at the guns muzzle much like the rifled choke tubes available now.
    45 2.1

    Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.

    Never sleep, never die

    Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.

  5. #5
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    Greetings 45 2.1 your post above reminded me of my childhood days. I used to have a Diana mod. 1 pellet gun in .177 cal and it was not very accurate so I use to push the pellet into the barrel a bit ( say 1/8 to 1/4 inch ) to make it a tiny bit undersize enough that it would shoot very accurately! I think I got a little higher velocity doing it this way also.
    Ajay
    www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

  6. #6
    Boolit Designer 45 2.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VdoMemorie View Post
    Greetings 45 2.1 your post above reminded me of my childhood days. I used to have a Diana mod. 1 pellet gun in .177 cal and it was not very accurate so I use to push the pellet into the barrel a bit ( say 1/8 to 1/4 inch ) to make it a tiny bit undersize enough that it would shoot very accurately! I think I got a little higher velocity doing it this way also.
    Ajay
    www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com
    Ajay............... Most of the time it is the little things we do that determine if things work out or not.
    45 2.1

    Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance.

    Never sleep, never die

    Knowledge is easy to get, but worthless if you never use it. However the info is free, so the only person you have to blame is yourself if you chose not to use the information.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    Track Of the Wolf has 0.735" round balls but pure lead so maybe not the best. You could certainly try them to see. The worst that would happen is leading and bad accuracy.

    Not sure if anyone else sells hard alloy balls or not.

    If you are interested, Track Of The Wolf is here:

    http://www.trackofthewolf.com/catego...Size=25&Page=3

    If you try the pure lead balls I would recommend either tumble lubing the ball or using a lubed wad under it.

    I got my best accuracy with a stack of hard card wads over a plastic gas seal. A scoop of cornmeal or shotbuffer under the ball helps cushion it too.

    Longbow

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Dixie Slugs's Avatar
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    Most of the present rifled barrels run .727" in the grooves and a .730" Hard cast slug is correct with a .003" compression.
    Ross also found the there was a different land/groove in those guns designed for paper vs brass hulls. In fact he stated, from his tests, that only about 10% were designed from brass hulls.
    The problem with these modern fast twists are they are too fast for most ball use unless the ball is somewhat oversize.
    As for the ball/bullet being undersize and upsetting into the land/groove....Ross was using a pure lead bullet!
    Another problem with smoothbore is the fact that the bore diameters are all over the board as far as size is concerned!It appears that only Remington and Winchester still have the standard .729"/730" barrels.
    I am not taking anything away from Ross....but most of his tests have been with original guns.
    We have made/tested some real balls guns that the bore and the ball were exact.....and fired a vey hard alloy hard cast heat treated ball.
    We had to remove the Dixie Tusker from the market due to hobbyist trying to make it work in undersize, oversize, and choked smoothbore barrels.
    You will never be able to duplicate the originals unless you design the same as they were designed.
    Regards, James
    Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com)-Home of the Dixie Terminator

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Nitro, I have a 2 band slug that might work for you. It is 580gr in the stuby version, and 690gr in an extended version. It is hollow base to be like a truncated cone foster design. The Metplat is large, about .500" It would probably be the best bet for accuracy. Round balls don't have much bearing area for engagement in the modern rifled choke tubes. The traditional Paradox guns had deep rifling, of .012" per side for a total of .024" enagagement. Modern rifling depth is more like .004-.005" Those shallow grooves aren't going to give much grab on the ball, even a hardened one. According to Ross Seyfried's old article, the twist rates ont he modern guns were way too fast. The fastest twist he could find in the 12 bore rifles, not Paradox guns was 1 in 60". He tested a 1000 gr conical and it was better in that twist, than a modern 1in 34"

    The slugs I have been shooting are fins in fully rifled modern barrels of 1 in 28" twist. The only stabilization problems I have encountered are with undersize round balls in wads.
    Greg

  10. #10
    Hello All,

    James,
    I recieved the samples you sent me, Thanks
    I tried to push a slug into the barrel from the chamber side, seemed very tight.
    I tapped one into the rifled choke and like seating an oversized ball in a muzzle loader, I got the half moon lead trimmings.
    Looks like the bore on the smoothbore is 0.729" or less, the choke measures at 0.730" to the grooves.
    I think I will pass on these, the weight and therefore recoil of the 1 3/4 oz. will be significant, also I am worried about shooting the rib loose on a SXS if the slugs are too tight, as well as other dangers.

    I have requested some RB samples hard and soft, at 0.735 " the chokes have a 1:36" twist it hope they will stabelize at 0.005 ~ 0.006 engraving.
    I am planning to use IMR 800-X with the balls.

    I also have some slugs in 1 1/4 oz and 1 3/8 oz hard and soft coming.
    They are similar in design to the dixie but not made from hardened alloy.
    They also have hollow base to reduce the weight.
    They are stated as being 0.730", they will be here today.
    I will check them in the choke tubes and chamber tonight.

    I have ordered my brass and cards and wads ( 11 ga )
    I would like to use IMR powder since I have a supply of 700-X and 800-X.
    I will look through my DGJ and see if I can find the article also G.Wrights book has some paradox info.
    Obviously this is not an old paradox just the concept using modern chokes.
    I also only have 20" barrels.

    Thanks for input so far, please keep it coming.

    Regards
    "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall
    DRSS
    Whomper's Club
    BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa)
    470 NE DR
    45-70 DR
    12 ga Paradox
    450 NE SR
    20 ga. DR (Project)

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    The standard Paradox load was 750 grains at around 1200 FPS. The recoil on that isn't too bad. If you go shooting the round balls at 1500+ FPS you won't like the recoil.
    A good point to make is the amount of bearing surface on the projectile. A round ball has a minimum surface to good contact. Accuracy is not likely to be good with the fast twist and shallow rifling. The longer bearing surface of a heavy concical stands a better chance and being stabilized by the choke.
    I wouldn't worry about the bullets being too hard, greatly oversize would be more of a concern. The choke is going to shave lead if you puch the slug in the muzzle side, the other side should have an angle to allow the bullet to swage into it.
    Greg

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Rifled choke tubes self tighten on firing.

    Don't forget that rifled choke tubes self-tighten when the shotgun is fired. The torque generated by a full bore hard cast slug may overtighten a rifled choke tube.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    I did forget to mention that Ralph. Defintely use some Never-seez on the threads. That will hopefully keep the tube rom becoming a permanent fixture in the barrel. Another convern is ring bulging a portion of the tube. I think some peopl have experienced that already.
    Greg

  14. #14
    Hello,

    When you mention "ring bulging the tube" are you reffering to the barrel as the "tube" or the actual choke tube ?
    I will lube the threads and since these are extended tubes they have a shoulder,
    hopefully this will help them from over torqueing.
    The shoulder should stop them from srewing them selves in too deep.

    I still am having trouble getting my head around shooting a hard cast 0.730" slug down a 0.727" ~ 0.729" thin walled SXS barrel.
    James mentions this as being OK, but I would imagine most of his tests were done on semi's of pumps with singe barrels, with or without ribs ?

    Thanks for input so far, I will let you know my results, assuming I still have all my digits to type

    Regards
    "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall
    DRSS
    Whomper's Club
    BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa)
    470 NE DR
    45-70 DR
    12 ga Paradox
    450 NE SR
    20 ga. DR (Project)

  15. #15
    Boolit Master Dixie Slugs's Avatar
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    Let's see if I can address this post with some reason. First of all. I have said on many occasions the the .730" diameter slug was correct for a rifled barrel with .727" grooves...period! When it came to smoothbore barrels. I stated that there must be a slip fit in whatever the diameter of the bore was....period!
    Many years ago when Dixie was just starting, we did extensivw tests on various designs. Based in H&H's actual loada we found the following:
    (1) Their first Paradix load was a blackpowder load with a 730'750 gr bullet at 1000'/"
    (2) They then up dated the load. usng Codite powder, to 1200'/"
    (3) They then added loads for fully rifled barrels using the same bullet
    Now....R0SS did some outstanding work on original guns and found there was two types....one designed for paper hulls and one for thin brass huils. The barrels for the thinner brass hulls had a groove diameter that ran about .745". He also tested and discuused original Ball guns. All of these had a slow ball twist and the solids were squared in the rifles barrels and Paradox guns
    We seem to have to go over all this time and time again! Early, we tested rifled choke tubes, and found today's tubes had a fast 1 in 34 avg twist!...same as the present rifled barrels. This twist was designed to try to stabilize the long sabot loads.
    We found the following:
    (1) None of the tubes gave acuracy we were satisfied with.
    (2) There was some bulging in the skirt area of the tubes.
    (3) The twist was too fast for ball loads hitting the tube's fast twist at velocities as high as 1600'/"
    and above all....no mater what lube we used, the tube was torgued into the barrel to the extent that some had to be removed in a lathe by Mike Orlen. We had one tube that was torqued so deep that the skirt extended into the bore.....and the slug torn it up!
    Now,,,,It is next to impossible to slug a barrel (any rifled barrel in shotguns, rifles, or hanguns) with a full size hard cast slug! Oversize hard cast bullets, in rifled barels,are as the following:
    (1) Up to and including .357 guns....001" over size.
    (2) Up to and including .458" guns...002" oversize
    (3) .458" and above (includes 20 & 12 bore)....003' oversize.
    Since most factory rifled barrels run .727" in the grooves, the hard cast bullet at .730" diameter is correct.
    The best we have found for slugging a rifled barrel is pure lead Egg fishing sinkers that are slighing larger that the bore.
    Bottom line is...we have found the best ball gun design in smoothbore barrels is a ball size size that is a slip fit in the cylinder barrel.
    And.....we have found no rifled tube with the fast twist giving reults we were satified with! Even a slow twist tube, unlike the original fixed barrels with rifling of the Paradox, will torgue the tubes in too tight.
    You are just asking for trouble when you push a hard cast bore size ball/bullet through any smoothbore with choke constriction. In fact, we pulled one of our best loads (Tusker) due to the fact people keep pushing them through over tight chokes and undersize barrels.
    Best Regards, James
    Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com)-Home of the Dixie Terminator

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

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    Good stuff James!

    I have often wondered why a slug with a body of say 0.680" and several narrow ribs/driving bands to 0.730" hasn't been tried... or at least I haven't seen one.

    There are several slugs like the Brenneke that use helical ribs to center the slug but to allow collapse through choke without damage to the gun. Wouldn't wide deep grooves and narrow driving bands do the same thing ~ center the slug up, grip rifling and yet easily collapse if shot through a choke?

    I am thinking something like a Tusker with a core body diameter of around 0.660" to maybe 0.680" with 5 or 6 (maybe more?) narrow driving bands out to 0.730" replacing the two driving bands and one groove. If shot through a choke the bands would just fold over.

    For hunting it shouldn't matter because the meplat is what is doing the damage and it is smaller than the body would be.

    I could sketch it up and post it if you want to see what I am thinking.

    Just a thought.

    Longbow

  17. #17
    James,

    Your response that you will address this post with reason, implies that none is present in the current discussion.
    If you look at my initial post, I clearly state I have no experience in shotgun loading, and ask a number of question, like what ball / slug size is correct for my gun, I than go on to state that an interference fit concerns me.
    I came to this site specifically because you and others with a great amount of knowledge and experience frequent it.
    The reason I am even discussing this, is because I have been told that a 0.735" ball is OK in a 0.729" smooth barrel and a 0.730" slug is OK in a 0.727" ~ 0.729" smooth barrel.

    So in a nut shell I ask again, 20" smooth bore SXS approximately 0.727" ~ 0.729" with screw in extended rifled chokes 1:36" 0.730" groove diameter.
    Brass Magtech 2 1/2" shells loaded in rock chuker supreme with RCBS cowboy dies, 11 ga nitro cards 1/8" thick and 1/2" waxed fibre wads. (Can be combined in any order and quantity to acheive crimp on the projectile.
    I plan to use IMR 700X or 800X as I have a supply of this powder.

    What ball or slug do you recommend for safe loading practices ?

    Thanks everyone for your suggestions and keeping me safe.

    Regards
    Nitro450exp
    "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall
    DRSS
    Whomper's Club
    BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa)
    470 NE DR
    45-70 DR
    12 ga Paradox
    450 NE SR
    20 ga. DR (Project)

  18. #18
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Okay, first things first - lets find out what your bore diameter REALLY IS instead of anymore guessing and speculating about the bore diameter of your gun.

    I just took two balls cast from soft nearly pure lead in my Lyman 0.735" round ball mold (of which you should have five that I sent you) and pushed them through two of my personal guns from breach to barrel. I didn't have a dowel handy so I found a 3' scrap length of really big diameter insulated aluminum core underground power line that just slipped into my 12ga. bore and used that instead of the usual brass/aluminum/wood pipe/rod/dowel to drive them through the bore with a few taps from a standard size framing hammer. I drove one through my tactical sawed off smooth bore pump gun and the other through one of my NEF-USH rifled barrel slug guns.



    Apparently the smooth bore in question measures at 0.7305" and my rifled barrel measures at 0.7200" and 0.7295" for the minor and major diameters of the rifling. The tightest bore gun I own in 12ga. is a cheapo $200 Euro-trash side by side double with exposed hammers. I slugged its bore a long time ago, one measures 0.719" and the other 0.720" and the muzzle end on both barrels has a slight swaged in fixed choke so that both muzzles measure 0.715"

    I have shot soft lead balls from my Lyman 0.735" RB mold and thick skirt HB foster slugs made from soft lead in all of my 12ga. guns at one time or another including that tight bore Euro-trash side by side double. I have fired hard lead balls and hard lead foster slugs from my custom mold through the tactical shotgun that I just put the balls through and of course all my rifled barrel slug guns and put them through my Saiga-12 as well with different choke constrictions to find out if a hard slug would really split a choke or not (Saiga chokes use external threads instead of internal threads and the actual choke constriction section is an extension of the guns barrel length and thus splitting a Saiga choke won't split the guns barrel and only the choke tube itself is damaged) - they will but it took more constriction and more slugs through them to get them to either open up or split then I thought it would.

    Anyway - I'm rambling again; Use a couple of the soft balls I sent you to figure out what is the TRUE diameter of your guns bore and then lets work from there.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master

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    Not trying to hijack the thread but here is what I am thinking.

    Tusker nose with 0.730" driving bands (could be larger) and 0.600" body and with same Tusker hollow base.

    The idea being the driving bands will easily swage to fit undersize barrels or to go through chokes.

    Longbow
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tusker Ribbed.pdf  

  20. #20
    Turbo,

    Thanks for the input, yes I agree that finding out the actual bore diameter is the starting point, I will stop at gander mountain and buy some soft lead sinkers to slug my barrels, I do not want to waste the 5 RB's you sent me, as I want too shoot them if it proves OK.
    I also feel that the soft slugs, especially the 1 1/4 oz ones, with the deepest hollow base, will shoot at safe pressure levels

    All the questions about different diameters shot out of different bore sizes are mainly because I would like to shoot the harder slugs if possible.

    Soft or pure lead will be more prone to "failure" if bone is encountered or less penetration at obscure angles.
    The harder slugs, as you mentioned before, have more of the lightning effect, as in they drop as if struck by lightning.

    I will slug the bores as soon as I can make some time and all of my reloading components arrive, should be by the end of the week.
    Unfortunately time is a luxury I am a little short on right now, my 4 month old daughter has a habit of comandeering what little extra time I can find.
    It is scheduled to rain this weekend so the indoor time will be perfect.

    Thanks
    I will keep you posted of the actual progress.
    Regards
    Nitro450exp
    "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall
    DRSS
    Whomper's Club
    BASA (Big Bore Association of Southern Africa)
    470 NE DR
    45-70 DR
    12 ga Paradox
    450 NE SR
    20 ga. DR (Project)

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check