Why I don't like inlines - GRAPHIC!

[10 ga]

Seen all this before. Go over to Dougs Message Boards and check out the safety issues forum. I have 8 MLs, 4 sidehammer and 4 inline, and shoot all of them. I consider the inlines just as safe as the sidehammer guns. Inlines have been around since matchlock days. It is not the ignition location, it's the steel and how the gun is handled by the loader or shooter. As MLing is a form of "amunition manufacture" is is subject to lots of safety issues. Fact of it is that if the guy in the original picture was loading by volume with the correct powder instead of weight he would still be within the correct range of suggested loads! I have had my Hunter Safety Instructors certification for over 35 years and have seen MANY blown up guns. Blowing up a gun is not restricted to only inline MLs. In fact inline MLs probably make up the smallest # of guns that I have seen that were destroyed. A fool with a gun is still a fool with a gun no matter what kind of gun it is. 10 ga

[jimb16]

That makes me glad I only shoot flints. OUCH!!!!!

[EchoSixMike]

Guns are not safe; the operator is safe. The same gun is unsafe in the hands of a fool.

I deal with fools on a routine basis; I no longer pity them.

What actually was the debrief on this blown up gun? Excessive load or what? S/F.....Ken M

[blaster]

I've seen these pictures and a couple more like them on a website I think was called American Muzzleloading? As I recall they had a few stories about exploding Savages. They blamed a change in the design of the breech plug from the original.

I read an article a couple of months ago in one of the deer hunting rags where a guy double charged his inline (i don't remember the brand) seated a bullet left the ramrod in and took (tried to take) an anchoring shot on a buck. He walked away with noting worse than 2 black eyes and scope cut stitches from what must have been massive recoil.

Bottom line is, a bad gun might let go any time and a good gun, inlines included, might survive some level of stupid.

[Doc Highwall]

If you look the receiver is intact and the barrel is still screwed in, the barrel burst ahead of the where the powder and bullet would have been seated. Makes me think he was trying to max out the load.

[mike3132]

Guys,

Ive worked with the Savage since it came out and they have been a few gun barrels burst. Not one has been verified to be a bad design or barrel. All of them are shooter error. Savage tests these MLII barrels to 125000 PSI. There are safe or safer than any other brand of muzzle loader. If you like to learn more about this gun please visit us at,
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi

Mike3132,
Site Administrator of Doug's Message Board,
The Original Savage Muzzleloader Site.

[waksupi]

Mike, I'd almost bet that 100% could be attributed to shooter error.

[lathesmith]

Pardon me if I am reading something in here that isn't meant, but....I believe the primary points that waksupi is trying to make by saying that he "doesn't like inlines" is: 1) obviously, he don't really care for the "styling", or lack thereof; but most importantly, 2) A little mistake with blackpowder, and I mean just that, BLACK powder, not fakes, or subs--is much more forgiving than the same mistake with smokeless. For example, if you accidently overcharge your front-stuffer with, say, an extra 10 grains of black powder, you may notice a little more recoil, and maybe smoke, but likely not much else. Make that same little mistake with loose smokeless, and--well, simply reference the the initial post for the potential disaster that almost certainly awaits you.

For some reason, the unlearned get the idea that an modern inline is (impossibly) super-strong, and can take anything in the way of smokeless that they can pour down the spout, just without all the "mess" of black powder. I can definitely agree, fooling with smokeless in a front-stuffer is really a game for the experienced only, and not some shortcut for the new rube that is too lazy to take 5 minutes after a shooting session to clean up his firearm. I'll take the mess of black powder any day over the mess that I see in that initial post. Yuck!


lathesmith

[mooman76]

One bad thing about loading the smokeless inline is you don't have to be a loader to do it. I am sure there are probably some here myself and friends included that it would be cool to get into reloading and load some super hot loads. I didn't know at the time how dangerous it was or even the big difference in different powders. That barrel kind of looks like a barrel obstruction, like he got a bullet stuck half way down and fired it anyway but that's just what it looks like. I do believe it was shooters fault whatever it was.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
People make mistakes whether they fire BLACK POWDER or whatever. I have seen BLOWN UP muzzleloaders and all sorts of weapons. Mistakes happen and sometimes it is because someone just crosses over the line of safety.
But lets face it... gun accidents are so small when we compare them to all the other SELF INFLICTED damage people seem to need in their personal lives that sadly end up killing and maiming lots of other people who will never get the chance to "Move aside" because the "ACCIDENT" is driving not shooting.

[mike3132]

I totally agree inlines are not for everyone. Heck, I cut my teeth on a T/C Hawkins back in the early 70's, boy was that a learning experience. Me and my buddy poured our own bullets out of semi-tire wheel weights before we learned we should be using soft lead. I killed my very first deer using that .50 and a 180 grain patched round ball. Man, was I excited!

Smokeless muzzleloading is not that hard if you will just take a little time to read and follow directions but reading and following directions isn't what some like to do! LOL

If any of you have questions about the Savage please stop by our site and ask. Good shooting to all, Mike

[remla75]

I have one of those guns love it fits well and shoot like a ddream cleans eazy also the istructions are very detialed donot over load i have seen pic on other forums sum get away easy sum don't the deer realy do drop fast with it iI even took it to a coupel of shoots real hard to get a round ball good enogh for the shoots twist is to fast I only use 25 gr black powder 2 f and sum paper wads keeps it within 1in at 25 yards

[tek4260]

Only problem with Savage ML rifles is that they did away with the ML-1

[TNsailorman]

I am a "traditionalists" muzzleloader shooter from the late 1960's on. However, the in-lines are for the most part well made and function as intended. The problem is the same with an in-line as with any other rifle, shotgun, pistol; the user can use it any way he so desires and some people somehow equate pushing the envelope way past designed specifications as making them more "intelligent" and more "man". Some do it out of just plain lack of understanding or knowledge. I can understand the minor point of wanting an easier to clean after shooting powder, but you first have to look at the designed specs. and warnings and use them to make safe decisions. I myself, find that black powder rifles are easier to clean than smokeless powder. I can clean a black powder rifle in 30 minutes with hot soapy water, a smokeles rifle takes longer and is far more expensive (bore cleaner and patches) than smokeless. To blame the tool is a version of the old oft quoted phrase of the anti-gun crowd that "guns cause crime", it is the user who determines the safety or lethality of the tool. The tool itself is an inanimate object and is incapable of either intelligence or motive. Although I will never own an in-line, I don't blame the in-line for the problem. It is me or the man/woman behind the in-line that will make it dangerous or safe. My opinion anyway. James

[White Smoke]

I'm not that familiar with the 10ML but I did run across this article about a design flaw. For what it's worth...http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert.html

[IridiumRed]

I'm not that familiar with the 10ML but I did run across this article about a design flaw. For what it's worth...http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert.html

All I can say is "WOW"

The guy who did the write up in that link, I'd say he makes a rather compelling argument. I dont know what Savage's reply would be / will be, but.... it does look like trouble

[mike3132]

Toby Bridges had a bone to pick with Savage and the guns designers Henry and Bill Ball. Toby was fired by Savage and soon after this story appeared. Theres a lot more to this story that I cant reveal but lets just say this story was more of a revenge article.

[Multigunner]

Now, notice that from the bottom of the outside barrel threads to the bottom of the unused threads found in the airspace that surrounds the front (unthreaded) half of the breech plug, the barrel steel is only about half as thick as the barrel steel ahead of the breech plug recess. Still, when the seal is lost between the front sealing shoulder of the breech plug and the corresponding shoulder at the rear of the bore, that thinner steel is subjected to the same high pressures as the barrel at its thickest point.

Sounds logical to me.

Personally I prefer more traditional side plate locks , under hammer, or mule ear locks. Nothing basically wrong with the inline concept of course, but from the photos of the blown up rifle the execution seems to have been faulty in this case.

Also while a smokeless load in such a rifle may be safe on paper so far as pressures go, the cartridge case and chamber play a large part in absorbing the initial thrust of the charge against a breech face, the same charge in a muzzle loader applys its full force against the breech plug without any such cushioning effect.
I think that caseless cartridge designs might suffer similar problems.

[PatMarlin]

Toby Bridges had a bone to pick with Savage and the guns designers Henry and Bill Ball. Toby was fired by Savage and soon after this story appeared. Theres a lot more to this story that I cant reveal but lets just say this story was more of a revenge article.

Revenge bone to pick with Savage or not, this guy is dead right in my opinion. No way I would own a Model 10ML II with that breech plug. Doesn't take a Nasa engineer to figure this one out.

Holy cow, I can't believe Savage has not corrected that. .050 steel thickness eventually getting exposed to gas pressures upwards of 50,000 psi? Can we say "possible metal fatigue likely" or ticking time bomb Bullwinkle?

I guess it's cheaper to ignore the white elephant in the room and pay for occational damages...

That is plain nuts.

[DwarvenChef]

I'm currious if that plug would be reasonable safe with black powder or subs. I think that advertising it as a smokeless using ML sent the wrong messages to the wrong people and Boom!!!