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Thread: High Velocity PPCB Comments?

  1. #41
    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael J. Spangler View Post
    Ok so patching to finished diameter with no sizing is a bad thing?

    So if I’m working with a .451 bore and .458 groove 45/70 I need to be about .453 patched to .462 and sized down to .460?
    I’ve been using BACO 9# onion skin which gets me from .453 to .4595 or so. Not big enough to size down to compress the patch.
    Should I just switch to my Bienfang 100% cotton vellum which gets up to about .462 with a finished wrap? The size down?

    Seems it would be tough to get the onion skin to cover most needs due to how thin it is. At least with the traditional Mathews way of thinking with .001-.002" over bore size wrapped to .001-.002" over groove size.


    I know that we're talking high velocity vs a 45/70 here but does the sized patch still apply?

    I'm planning on playing with paper patch in a .308 pretty soon so this thread is going to be watched closely.
    While some people have good luck with sizing the patched bullet, it has never worked for me. For example of my method, for .30-40 I size the core to .303-.304 depending on the rifle. The core is wet patched with .002 thick tracing paper to .311-.312 and loaded. The results are 2 inch groups at 100 yards with bullets driven to jacketed velocities; 215 bullet at 2200 fps in the case of the .30-40.
    To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Cash View Post
    While some people have good luck with sizing the patched bullet, it has never worked for me. For example of my method, for .30-40 I size the core to .303-.304 depending on the rifle. The core is wet patched with .002 thick tracing paper to .311-.312 and loaded. The results are 2 inch groups at 100 yards with bullets driven to jacketed velocities; 215 bullet at 2200 fps in the case of the .30-40.

    Ok cool. I think when i tested my papers I had best results with the BACO which wrapped to about .4595” so no sizing was performed.

  3. #43
    Boolit Man
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    I am a newby to smokeless patching.
    I am loading for a Martini in .303 British. Casting from wheelweights this 200 grainer, now with a gas check to stop some leading.
    Still getting leading.
    A previous post said all the bearing area should be patched. On this long bullet perhaps I should patch up past the bearing bands to near the nose.
    All my patching has been black powder and I can find the patches.
    I have fired over 50 of these from the Martini and yet to find any remains of a patch.
    Is this normal or are my patches sticking to the bullet, going up range and destroying any accuracy?
    IMG_2276 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/]

  4. #44
    Boolit Buddy bullbarrel033's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    I am a newby to smokeless patching.
    I am loading for a Martini in .303 British. Casting from wheelweights this 200 grainer, now with a gas check to stop some leading.
    Still getting leading.
    A previous post said all the bearing area should be patched. On this long bullet perhaps I should patch up past the bearing bands to near the nose.
    All my patching has been black powder and I can find the patches.
    I have fired over 50 of these from the Martini and yet to find any remains of a patch.
    Is this normal or are my patches sticking to the bullet, going up range and destroying any accuracy?
    IMG_2276 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/141809689@N05/]
    With smokeless the patch turn to fine confetti at the muzzle, so finding the patch will be impossible I believe.
    THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN HIT THE CENTRE OF THE TARGET IS WITH A CENTREFIRE!!!

  5. #45
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    The idea is to get the patch to come off as confetti at the muzzle. I developed a load for my Martini carbine barreled gun for the patch to just fully disintegrate. It shot great at first but then the bore polished up and the powder charge had to be increased to fully disintegrate the patch again.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  6. #46
    Boolit Man
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    I dry patch, so thought I should find something.
    Those that iron on the waxed patch, they must still release OK.
    Anyone have a pic of what is left of a smokeless patch. I have heaps of blackpowder ones.

  7. #47
    Boolit Buddy bullbarrel033's Avatar
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    I've only loaded 20 PP bullets in .308 this far. Groups were poor at 100m. I think my paper was too thin. I am about to try thicker tracing paper of .0035" and my PP mold drops a .301 bullet. By my calculations this adds up to .315" With a wet patch and stretch factor I'm hoping to size to .311"
    THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN HIT THE CENTRE OF THE TARGET IS WITH A CENTREFIRE!!!

  8. #48
    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullbarrel033
    With smokeless the patch turn to fine confetti at the muzzle, so finding the patch will be impossible I believe.
    I personally would patch to the start of the ogive. Also, it is likely that your patched projectile is a bit small and/or too deep in the cartridge case. I had a leading problem when trying to patch .300 Savage bullets in the 180-200 grain class. Base of bullet was below cartridge neck and recovered bullets showed extreme battering from powder grains from the base up to where the bullet was protected by the case neck.

    Recovereed patch material will look like fine confetti when you find it.
    Last edited by Dan Cash; 08-18-2018 at 01:08 PM. Reason: clarity
    To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    I dry patch, so thought I should find something.
    Those that iron on the waxed patch, they must still release OK.
    Anyone have a pic of what is left of a smokeless patch. I have heaps of blackpowder ones.
    Picked up 15 yds downrange.

    Recovered from 'Test Tube'.






    This last one is the carbine patch that shot MOA at 100m (110yds) with open sights. It wasn't long before the patch stopped coming off in strips due to bore polishing.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 08-18-2018 at 08:27 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  10. #50
    Boolit Buddy
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    Keith,

    Years ago, while shooting my standard 308 Win 3000+fps PPCB load (i.e. 150gr. LBTLFN w/50 gr. Win 748), I tried to find pieces of the paper patching by crawling around on the ground looking for it. I could not find any confetti. What I did see, after each shot, was a puff of white smoke.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  11. #51
    Boolit Man
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    Thanks. Its been windy here and the grass is fairly long. My old 45-70 patches are still laying around but no sign of any new ones. Cant see any white puffs either. I was thinking of getting one of the woven plastic feed bags I have here and holding it open some how and shooting through it to see what I can catch.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I catch mine inside this.



    Inside is a bullet catcher. I recover the patch fragments on a cloth over the catcher - that's the cloth with fragments in my post above.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  13. #53
    Boolit Master
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    A old sheet layed out may be better to catch the paper patch.

    Iíd like a martini 303 as well.
    Do they take full snot loads with out undue problems?
    I would try to patch out down to 0.303Ē on the nose and see if that worked any better.
    Usually bore + diameter works.
    A small diameter pill canít ride the lands at the engraving stage and can be canted at the first push.
    As far as I figure anyway.
    I have breachseated some undersized cores patched up and well lubed mouse fart loads but thatís a different animal all together.

  14. #54
    Boolit Man
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    As Dan said , I think my base is in the shoulder when the nose is pushed back by the rifling. I have ordered a shorter mold.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I made a measuring tool - a simple brass rod with a mark on it that aligns with the neck junction and rear of the action. It has a rounded end to fit into the patch 'eye' on the base. I drop the boolit into the breach and see where the base will sit in the neck.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  16. #56
    Boolit Man
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    I drilled a hole in the back of an old case, put the bullet it the case and poke the rod in there to push the bullet into the lands , then mark the rod.
    Works for me because the breech end has been drilled.
    I think its a good mod because all my cleaning is from the breech end now.
    The bullet had the paper engaging the rifling and the GC on the base was inside the neck. That might be causing my fliers.

  17. #57
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    This is mine. I use it to push the boolit/bullet into the breach.





    The accuracy would depend on the chamber of course but all my LE's have the shoulder cose to spec. Close but not exact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith View Post
    The bullet had the paper engaging the rifling and the GC on the base was inside the neck. That might be causing my fliers.
    That's pretty much how I want mine to be. Base flush with neck/shoulder and ogive engaging the rifling. I don't want it to pull it out of the case when extracting an unfired round. My seating is quite firm and cannot be moved without using a press but bolt camming is powerful. So I make sure the boolit is not actually pushed back on chambering.

    Here is a boolit showing the rifling contact. The gauge tells me how deep to seat it to get that degree of contact.

    Last edited by 303Guy; 08-21-2018 at 11:48 PM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check