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Thread: High Velocity PPCB Comments?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by yondering View Post
    The only really important criteria I've found in paper patching are:
    - The patch should cover the whole driving and bore ride portions of the bullet; no lead should touch the bore.
    - The patch should be very tightly compressed during final sizing, with no wet lube applied. Paper will compress down to a smooth hard material, that will grip the rifling better than un-compressed paper.
    - Size to fit the throat. Never mind bore/groove dimensions.
    - Seating depth should be such that the front edge of the paper just barely engages the rifling.

    I shoot 250gr PP bullets in my Whelen at 2700+ fps. Like any reloading, you have to try different bullets to find what works best in your gun.
    ^ This tracks with the recommendations that Lee gives with their bullet moulds. Lee's recommendation is that if a bullet will chamber, then it probably doesn't need sizing. Probably explains why a .338 diam. bullet can chamber and shoot well in a .329/.335 bore in a Steyr M95 8x56r.

  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy
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    Gee, I almost forgot about this thread. But it's appropriate to list my "lessons learned" since the start of this thread.
    1. I had random success in heavily sizing GGCB for PP; i.e. sometimes perfect sized CB and then sometimes sized CB with GG missing on one side. That prompted my son and I to design some special PPCB moulds that LBT's Veral Smith made for us. They drop near perfect round CB where the minimal sizing required just trues the OD. Very few CB rejects from LBT 4-cavity moulds and very, very close weights. These designs were slight improvements to the NRA PPCB designs.
    2. I've standardized on two powders; WW748 and WW760.
    3. SubMOA groups are regularly achieved in my 308W with a 150 gr. LBT LFN @ 3000+fps and WW748. My new PPCB designs are close to subMOA but not yet consistent.
    4. My son and I achieved 3200+fps in a 300H&H with hunting accuracy @ 100 yds, but we're still "tweeking" parameters and closing in on the "magic PPCB parameters". We also got hunting accuracy with a 375H&H using a poor CB design, as well as hunting accuracy with a 300 Sav. We then regrouped and now only concentrate on PP the 308W & 300 H&H to achieve subMOA with our new designed/cloned NRA PPCB. We will revisit the other calibers after we finish our current testing and get some new moulds made.
    5. Our biggest problems, in all our PPCB testing,were equipment related. New scopes which initially held zero started to randomly change zero very slightly at each shot, mounts were not flush with receiver rings because receiver rings were angled and ring tops not parallel to each other, flexing scope bases that loosened mounting screws (375H&H), poor scope rings quality, CB runout problems with reloading seating dies used, etc., etc. I eliminated all my base problems by going to steel Picatinny bases(3x stiffer than aluminum), mounted on trued receiver rings, changed all scope rings to lapped TPS steel rings, and designed new scope turrets that now lock to prevent any zero changes. Also went back to sand bags on the bench because of too much movement on a adjustable front rest. Also changed all my seating dies to benchrest precision types and started checking
    CB concentricity/CB runout on every PPCB round.

    The positive things that resulted from all these adventures was that we achieved a lot of range time which resulted in steadily shrinking groups at 100 yds. This has been an incredible journey, for my son and I, and has been very satisfying. Motivation comes very easily, particularly when you see the prices on match jacket bullets approaching $50/box of 100.

    Also, thanks everyone for sharing your experiences. Please continue to share your PPCB experiences so that we can further the "state-of-the-arft" of accurate high velocity PPCB.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  3. #23
    Boolit Bub
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    This has been a great thread. There was some speculation earlier in the thread whether a softer or harder alloy would be needed for penetration on game. Now that high velocity smokeless PP cartridges are accurate and work well. Has anyone any experience on game?

  4. #24
    Boolit Buddy
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    Gunstuff,

    Good question! I'm looking forward to hearing descriptions of PPCB performance on game. I have yet to see what a 3000* fps 150 gr. LBT LFN will do on a deer. I've been close but not there yet. However, I would suspect that a PPCB around 13BHN-16BHN PPCB, with a high energy shock wave attached to the nose, would have devastating effects once it enters the chest cavity. Likewise the penetration should be great for a good blood trail.

    Best regards,

    CJR
    Last edited by CJR; 01-08-2015 at 11:32 AM. Reason: typo

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by GunStuff View Post
    This has been a great thread. There was some speculation earlier in the thread whether a softer or harder alloy would be needed for penetration on game. Now that high velocity smokeless PP cartridges are accurate and work well. Has anyone any experience on game?
    The wild paper plate target is a formidable game.... Never underestimate it....

  6. #26
    I worked up some paper patched bullets with Reloader 15, and just don't think that I'm doing it right.

    I had a .316" diam. paper patched bullet for my 91/30, and it shot "okay" at 50 yards. It put five shots into a baseball sized group at 50 yards and then went downhill from there. My starting load was 36 grains of Reloader 15 at an estimated 2,300 fps. I shot three more sets of five, increasing two grains of powder for each set. Accuracy decreased rapidly with each set. The last set of five used 42 grains of Reloader 15, and it was printing about 12" at 50 yards. I also had some over-pressure signs with some of the primers starting to crater on the final set of five.

    I might do better to try a different kind of patch material. But, for now, I'm doing better sticking with a light load of 5744 or 2400. I'll revisit this challenge later when I don't have to go shooting in single-digit temperature weather, and until then I'm going to get back to studying the other posts about paper patching.

  7. #27
    Boolit Buddy

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    As a suggestion, Tom, try patching 'bigger' to get more compression of the patch on firing. My own tests failed miserably until I patched to fit very tightly (without further expanding the necks) in FIRED cases thus filling the throat more. As posted here, forget 'bore' and patch for 'throat'. The LEE Factory Crimp Die is a very useful tool.
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  8. #28
    Suggesting that I patch to match the inside neck-diameter of a fired case and then restarting the testing? I'll give it a whirl and see what comes up.

  9. #29
    Boolit Buddy
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    TomBulls,

    Some suggestions;
    1. Do a "pound cast" to determine what type of chamber you're working with. It's possible the PP is being cut while chambering. Prepare a DUMMY round,i.e. NO powder, NO primer, and chamber it a couple of times to see if the PP is surviving the chambering process. Also, check to see if the chambering process is causing PPCB runout.
    2. If you've been shooting jacketed through that rifle, it takes awhile for the PPCB to clean out the copper/fouling. A good bore paste srubbing/fire-lapping may speed things up.
    3. You may have a PP slipping problem; i.e. not enough PP shrinkage force to hold PP onto CB ( from a dry PP) or not enough shrinkage force from the surface area of the PP (increase PP coverage area to increase PP holding stress). So next time at the range, when the groups open up, dry-brush the barrel and note where you get resistance; i.e. in front of the chamber, mid-barrel, or near muzzle. If the bore resistance is consistence, from chamber to muzzle, then the PP is surviving. If the PP is surviving then you need to look elsewhere; i.e. CB qualtiy, seating straightness, powder choices, better lube, etc.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  10. #30
    Boolit Buddy

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    +1 what CJR said.
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  11. #31
    Boolit Master yondering's Avatar
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    One other thought - does that 91/30 have rifling right out to the muzzle, or has the muzzle been relieved for the last inch or so, as a lot of mil-surp rifles are? If it's been relieved, and there's any roughness there, it may be grabbing the patch and ruining accuracy. The bullet and patch must exit the bore cleanly, paper patching seems very sensitive to this, and crown imperfections make a big difference.

    I had the same problem with a brake on my Whelen, the brake would grab the paper, and I could barely keep the shots on a large paper target at 50 yards. With the brake removed, it shot 1/2-3/4" groups @ 100 yards.

  12. #32
    @CJR- Thanks for the pro-tips, I'll try those checks when I'm out shooting again.

    @yondering- The rifling runs all the way out to the barrel's end, and it's in pretty good shape. I've shot about 50 paper patched cast bullets through it and it's "shining" now. I've been doing a _lot_ of reading and studying on the paper patch technique, and I'm really enjoying how intricate and complex that it can be.



    What I've been reading is that the cast bullet should be sized "slightly" over bore diameter, and the patch should be sized .001" to .002" over groove diameter. Example: If my M48 slugs a .318" bore, but a .323" groove, then the cast bullet should (ideally) be somewhere around .319" - .320", and the final patched and sized bullet should be about .324" - .325".

    I've also tried wrapping after wetting the patch with Sprite. I hear something about how the HFCS in the soda helps the patch adhere to itself better. I haven't managed to get such good accuracy that I could tell one way or the other, but the other readers around here are saying that nothing other than good old fashioned "water" is needed to do the job correctly.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master yondering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomBulls View Post

    What I've been reading is that the cast bullet should be sized "slightly" over bore diameter, and the patch should be sized .001" to .002" over groove diameter. Example: If my M48 slugs a .318" bore, but a .323" groove, then the cast bullet should (ideally) be somewhere around .319" - .320", and the final patched and sized bullet should be about .324" - .325".
    That's traditional thinking anyway. Personally I had better results with high velocity smokeless loads when using a bit larger bullet, and sizing down after patching to the desired diameter. Compression of the paper was the key, it will compress about 50% of it's thickness, so patching to the final desired size leaves a lot of room for compression and a potentially loose bullet.

    Personally, using grease groove bullets, in your example above I'd start with a .323" bullet, patch, then size to .325"+; this gave me the best accuracy. With a straight sided paper patch bullet though, I found the paper became loose with that method, so I had to start with a slightly smaller bullet, but not as small as bore diameter.

    With black powder and soft lead bullets, swelling of the bullet during firing seems to provide the compression needed, but I found that wasn't always the case with smokeless loads. YMMV

  14. #34
    Boolit Buddy bullbarrel033's Avatar
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    Fwiw Paul Mathews book states ppcb work best at 100% load density.....
    THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN HIT THE CENTRE OF THE TARGET IS WITH A CENTREFIRE!!!

  15. #35
    Boolit Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bullbarrel033 View Post
    Fwiw Paul Mathews book states ppcb work best at 100% load density.....
    Likewise in my experience. Stuff it full of the slowest powder practical and get the best results. I think the powder protects the bullet as it transitions through the throat. Faster powder blows gas past it and tears things up.
    "Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est."

  16. #36
    Boolit Buddy bullbarrel033's Avatar
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    Awesome i think your right. I will be able to tell you in a couple of weeks! It's quite a different adventure from gg cast
    THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN HIT THE CENTRE OF THE TARGET IS WITH A CENTREFIRE!!!

  17. #37
    Boolit Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Yeah, blowing unburned 760 out the muzzle makes my favorite rifle very happy.


    When developing loads my theory was to create an elongated pressure curve.
    Lower pressure but longer duration. Whoosh the soft slug out of there to get higher velocity without plastic deformation of the base being detrimental to accuracy.

  18. #38
    Ok so patching to finished diameter with no sizing is a bad thing?

    So if I’m working with a .451 bore and .458 groove 45/70 I need to be about .453 patched to .462 and sized down to .460?
    I’ve been using BACO 9# onion skin which gets me from .453 to .4595 or so. Not big enough to size down to compress the patch.
    Should I just switch to my Bienfang 100% cotton vellum which gets up to about .462 with a finished wrap? The size down?

    Seems it would be tough to get the onion skin to cover most needs due to how thin it is. At least with the traditional Mathews way of thinking with .001-.002" over bore size wrapped to .001-.002" over groove size.


    I know that we're talking high velocity vs a 45/70 here but does the sized patch still apply?

    I'm planning on playing with paper patch in a .308 pretty soon so this thread is going to be watched closely.

  19. #39
    Boolit Buddy bullbarrel033's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    Yeah, blowing unburned 760 out the muzzle makes my favorite rifle very happy.


    When developing loads my theory was to create an elongated pressure curve.
    Lower pressure but longer duration. Whoosh the soft slug out of there to get higher velocity without plastic deformation of the base being detrimental to accuracy.
    I like your thinking!
    THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN HIT THE CENTRE OF THE TARGET IS WITH A CENTREFIRE!!!

  20. #40
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Good Cheer View Post
    Yeah, blowing unburned 760 out the muzzle makes my favorite rifle very happy.


    When developing loads my theory was to create an elongated pressure curve.
    Lower pressure but longer duration. Whoosh the soft slug out of there to get higher velocity without plastic deformation of the base being detrimental to accuracy.
    I have some 780 - I wonder if that would work with heavies?
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check