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Thread: High Velocity PPCB Comments?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    High Velocity PPCB Comments?

    I tend to view PPCB as being in two distinct classes; i.e. low velocity: up to about 2200 fps and high velocity :from 2200 to 3000+ fps. I'm interested in the high velocity area. The NRA had to play around with lubricant types,amount of lubricant, sizing diameters, bullet designs, etc. to obtain consistent accuracy at 3000+ fps. For those here loading for high velocity PPCB, have you found any other significant loading parameters(better bullet designs, better lubricants,etc.)/techniques (paper type, patch coverage, etc.)that need to be applied? I'd be interested in what you've discovered for accurate high velocity PPCB.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    I use the standard Lee lube land .30cal casting. I size it to .308, wrap with two layers of notebook paper, size it to .309. I use Auto Wax lightly for the final sizeing.
    That is all I use.
    With 40.4gns of powder, it does the trick.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master pdawg_shooter's Avatar
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    From a earlier post....Back in November of 08 I decided to develop a sub-MOA, 3000fps load for a 30 caliber rifle. It took awhile, but I believe I have “got er done.”
    The Rifle.
    In order to get the velocity I wanted with this weight bullet I chose a 300RUM in a Savage model 116. It is stainless with a laminated stock. It came from the factory with pillar bedding, and I added glass behind the recoil lug, and under the front receiver ring and tang. I topped it with a Weaver T15 for this test. This rifle will group to 7/8 with good jacketed bullet loads.
    The Bullet.
    The most consistently accurate 30cal bullet I cast is the Lyman 311284 so this is the one I worked with. The alloy is a mix of WW and Linotype. I added lino. until an air cooled bullet tested 16.0 BHN on my Lee tester. The bullet was then sized .3015 with a push through die. This gave me full length bearing surface. The bullet was then patched with 16# green bar printer paper and allowed to dry overnight. I then clipped the tail, lubed with White Label BAC and run through a .310 push through die. This left the bullet .311 and ready to load. The finish weight, with patch, was 202gr.
    The Brass.
    I used new Remington brass. I full length sized them and sorted by weight allowing no more than +/- 1%. It was then trimmed to length, outside neck turned to .012 thickness, the primer pocket reamed to a uniform depth, flash holes drilled uniform and deburred. I then loaded with a 180gr. Core Lock and H4831 to fireform. The test load was then loaded in UNSIZED brass. I tried H1000, Retumbo, and finally settled on reloader25. The starting load was 88.0 and I worked up to 93.0. This gave me 3069 with no signs of excess pressure. Oh yes, the primer was a Federal 215. The bullets were seated about inch into the case and finished seating when the bolt was closed. This gave me an OAL of 3.670.
    The Test.
    Testing was done over 2 days. Shots were fired over a bench rest with a windage and elevation adjustable front rest and “bunny ear” rear rest. Twenty 3 shot groups were fired allowing the barrel to cool completely. The smallest group measured .760 and the largest was 1.140. The overall average figured out to .992. Mission accomplished, but just barely. So what good is this load? Not much unless you like poking holes in paper. Next step will be to neck size, seat to correct OAL and see how they shoot. Might make a good hunting load that way.
    I do load some jacketed 180, 200, and 220 grain bullets for this one. It now wears a Simmons 3.5x10 scope. Maybe some day I can go elk hunting.
    45 AUTO! Because having to shoot someone twice is just silly!

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Baron von Trollwhack's Avatar
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    FWIW, You may look into the latest on microchrystalline bullet wax on 6BR.com. They claim accuracy and easier cleanup, less bore wear.

    Thats what LEE sizing lube is to a large degree. Now I dont shoot HI-VEL PP but I've used that Lee wax for a long time and I think it helps accuracy and cleanup at least in 45-70 & PP43 Mauser. But I also have shot thousands of rounds in 223 and 7.5 Swiss with waxed J bullets and I'll continue the practice.

    BvT
    Every lawbreaker we allow into our nation, or tolerate in our citizen population leads to the further escalation of law breaking of all kinds and acceptance of evil.
    Since almost all aspects of our cultural existence are LIBERAL in most states, this means that the nation is on a trajectory to dissolution by the burden of toleration and acceptance of LAWBREAKING as a norm, a trajectory back to the dark ages of history.

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  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    Docone 31

    Any estimate on velocity?

    Pdawg

    Outstanding testing effort. Well done!

    Baron von Trollwhack

    Thanks for the tip on the wax. I've using a Dupont Teflon/Wax spray at about 2700 fps, based on what the NRA used in their 3000+fps tests.

    This summer, I plan to approach max. velocity in my 308, with PPCB, and see what consistent accuracy I get . Then I'll move on to a 300 H&H for 3000+ fps testing. My bullet is 311291 and if I need to lighten it a bit for high velocity, I'll hollow point it with my lathe. If I get my group buy LBT LFN 30 cal mold in time, I'll test the 311291 against the LBT LFN to see which is more accurate.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  6. #6
    Boolit Master yondering's Avatar
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    I think a lot of folks are over-thinking the whole paper patch thing. Paper patching for smokeless is very simple.
    -You don't need special lubes on the paper; a little sizing wax helps to push the wrapped bullet through the sizing die, but that's all you need.
    -You don't need to go out and buy special paper, ordinary printer paper works fine.
    -In a lot of cases, if patching a normal grease groove bullet, you don't need to size the bullet before wrapping. Size once after wrapping, that's it.
    -If you patch correctly, so the paper is compressed tightly during the final sizing, alloy and bullet hardness is not critical for accuracy. You can get good accuracy with hard or soft bullets, depending what you want.

    The only really important criteria I've found in paper patching are:
    - The patch should cover the whole driving and bore ride portions of the bullet; no lead should touch the bore.
    - The patch should be very tightly compressed during final sizing, with no wet lube applied. Paper will compress down to a smooth hard material, that will grip the rifling better than un-compressed paper.
    - Size to fit the throat. Never mind bore/groove dimensions.
    - Seating depth should be such that the front edge of the paper just barely engages the rifling.

    I shoot 250gr PP bullets in my Whelen at 2700+ fps. Like any reloading, you have to try different bullets to find what works best in your gun.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    Yondering,

    Thanks for your insight! Before I started viewing this forum, all I had was the NRA work to go by. The NRA approached high velocity PPCB with a certain mindset. I didn' t know if the NRA's approach was "overkill" or "underkill". What I hope will evolve from this thread are the "essential" important factors needed for accurate high velocity PPCB without the "gingerbread frosting".

    Best regards,

    CJR

  8. #8
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
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    I think a lot of folks are over-thinking the whole paper patch thing. Paper patching for smokeless is very simple.
    -You don't need special lubes on the paper; a little sizing wax helps to push the wrapped bullet through the sizing die, but that's all you need.
    -You don't need to go out and buy special paper, ordinary printer paper works fine.
    -In a lot of cases, if patching a normal grease groove bullet, you don't need to size the bullet before wrapping. Size once after wrapping, that's it. You can easily achieve 1 MOA accuracy doing it that way with most any lubricant. However, if you want better accuracy, it is best to cast it to the correct size and patch up with the proper thickness paper to just under throat size. Sizing a grease groove boolit to correct size before patching works almost as well. Results from doing this will be quite a bit better. The patch lube has quite an effect also....... choose wisely.
    -If you patch correctly, so the paper is compressed tightly during the final sizing, alloy and bullet hardness is not critical for accuracy. You can get good accuracy with hard or soft bullets, depending what you want.

    The only really important criteria I've found in paper patching are:
    - The patch should cover the whole driving and bore ride portions of the bullet; no lead should touch the bore.
    - The patch should be very tightly compressed during final sizing, with no wet lube applied. Paper will compress down to a smooth hard material, that will grip the rifling better than un-compressed paper.
    - Size to fit the throat. Never mind bore/groove dimensions.
    - Seating depth should be such that the front edge of the paper just barely engages the rifling. Very good information.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master yondering's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45 2.1 View Post
    However, if you want better accuracy, it is best to cast it to the correct size and patch up with the proper thickness paper to just under throat size.
    I respectfully disagree with this concept for smokeless powder use. By patching up to the desired diameter, and not sizing, you aren't compressing the paper. Uncompressed paper doesn't grip the rifling nearly as well. The only way to get a good tight fit with this method is to depend on bullet upset to crush the paper against the rifling; I figure why depend on something that doesn't have to be depended on? I think this method is a carry-over from black powder methods, and doesn't apply as well to smokeless uses.

    We almost need separate forums for black powder and smokeless paper patching, they are quite different.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    I agree with Yondering.
    I have seen a difference in the few experiments I did.
    An unsized patch, is not that stable to me.

  11. #11
    Banned 45 2.1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docone31 View Post
    I agree with Yondering.
    I have seen a difference in the few experiments I did.
    An unsized patch, is not that stable to me.
    I am NOT trying to change either of you OR the way you guys do things. I simply stated the results of my extensive tests over a couple of decades in quite a few calibers and bore sizes useing patched boolits. Typically I can get 1/2 MOA out of patched 4570 boolits doing it my way. 30 calibers have run in the 5/8 to 3/4MOA when I get things right. Not to great of a difference between methods, but its there none-the-less.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master pdawg_shooter's Avatar
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    I size my patched and lubed bullets to remove excess lube. Makes it neater when loading. However, when I use 50/50 alox and JPW for lube I do not size again. I can see no differrence in accuracy. If the patch is applied wet and correctly it will shrink to a hard "jacket."
    45 AUTO! Because having to shoot someone twice is just silly!

  13. #13
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I shall be doing a test with dry wrapped patches when work stops interfering (I have to pass up a deer hunt tomorrow morning followed by a magpie shoot and chance to test my pig gun and my BSA&M carbine with paper patches ). I get the impression that dry-wrapped patches are tougher than wet wrapped but not as tight but on a smooth sided boolit, the wet patch can be dislodged through mistreatment just as easily. I do use a twist and slide action to tighten the dry patch and I do have to use a dab of glue on the tail corner (the glue has no influence on the patch disintegration. I could just seat the patched boolit as I wrap them).
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  14. #14
    Boolit Master Baron von Trollwhack's Avatar
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    One of the issues involving wet patches regardless of GG or smooth bullets to be patched, or even diameter, sized or not, is the "patch" itself. 100% cotton or linen bond, or unobtanium bank note paper is a horse of a different color than computer paper or most any other paper and has noticeably different characteristics, such as shrink % from dry for final thickness, and, indeed, hardness. BvT
    Every lawbreaker we allow into our nation, or tolerate in our citizen population leads to the further escalation of law breaking of all kinds and acceptance of evil.
    Since almost all aspects of our cultural existence are LIBERAL in most states, this means that the nation is on a trajectory to dissolution by the burden of toleration and acceptance of LAWBREAKING as a norm, a trajectory back to the dark ages of history.

    BvT

  15. #15
    Boolit Buddy
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    Apparently, the experience stated here is widely different than what the former NRA PP experimenter, i.e. Ed Harris, stated. I have a comment from Ed Harris, stated on the Cast Bullet Association website,i.e. " Wouldn't recommend them for hunting as heavy loads require strong alloys such as linotype at pressures which are approaching 50,000CUP. They do not perform well for hunting loads, but shatter upon impact and would cause poor penetration with a violent surface wound like a varmint bullet. The alloys which work best with PP for hunting bullets from 12-14 BHN do not enable appreciably higher velocities with PP than you can get with a properly set up lubricated GC check bullet".

    As "pdawg shooter" proved in this thread; he's getting 3069 fps with no signs of excess pressure with a 16 BHN hard PPCB and decent accuracy to boot! If this isn't a good CB load for hunting, what is? Getting accurate PPCB loads with an air-cooled CB at 3000+fps is astounding to me. Seems like we need to completely rethink what was advocated early in the NRA development of PPCB loads and establish new rules based on our collective experiences.

    Though my initial PPCB testing got 2700 fps with acceptable accuracy, my bullets were not linotype. So far I'm a believer that accurate 3000+ fps can be achieved WITHOUT using linotype.

    Best regards,

    CJR

  16. #16
    Boolit Master yondering's Avatar
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    Yer on the right track.

    My impression is that the NRA testing was a little shortsighted, and tried to use too much of the blackpowder methods, without really thinking through what was happening in the bore.

    One big advantage of paper patching is you can tailor the alloy specifically for the end of the bullet's travel (impact on game) and not worry about it in the bore, unlike a grease groove bullet which has to be tailored carefully for the pressure of firing, with extra consideration for lube, gas checks, etc.

    You certainly can get good accuracy with a soft alloy paper patch bullet; in fact, you'd probably have to be careful not to use something too soft for the velocity intended, just because it might blow up on game if too soft.

    You can also get good accuracy with the same bullet at low pressure or high pressure, which isn't always the case with grease groove bullets.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I'd say the folks who did the NRA trials had to start somewhere and they - like I would have been - tested pretty much down there own thought process tracks. We have the advantage of all kinds of folks with different ideas, guns, thought process and we can cross-pollinate our ideas via a very good forum. (That includes having our notions and 'conclusions' challanged so that we are forced into keeping an open mind!)
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  18. #18
    Boolit Master RMulhern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yondering View Post
    I respectfully disagree with this concept for smokeless powder use. By patching up to the desired diameter, and not sizing, you aren't compressing the paper. Uncompressed paper doesn't grip the rifling nearly as well. The only way to get a good tight fit with this method is to depend on bullet upset to crush the paper against the rifling; I figure why depend on something that doesn't have to be depended on? I think this method is a carry-over from black powder methods, and doesn't apply as well to smokeless uses.

    We almost need separate forums for black powder and smokeless paper patching, they are quite different.
    yondering

    "We almost need separate forums for black powder and smokeless paper patching, they are quite different."

    YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!!
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  19. #19
    Boolit Master Nobade's Avatar
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    It wasn't 3000 fps, but yesterday I ran a bunch of PP ammo through my Garand with very good results. #308241, cast from ACWW, sized to .309, patched with 9# onionskin, lubed with wax, sized to .309, loaded over 47gr. IMR4895 and seated to be a firm press into the throat, but without resistance so the bolt would close. I didn't try them feeding through the magazine, just single loaded. But they were tracking with the sights out to 500M and had no trouble hitting any of the hanging steel I could see through the iron sights. Certainly at least as accurate as normal ball HXP ball ammo. I was certainly pleased!

  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    Yeppir.
    Works for me also.
    I also suspect there is a big diffenect between BP, and Smokeless.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check