Thompson Center

[exile]

I have been trying lately to come up with a rifle for deer hunting here in Nebraska. I will probably not buy one anytime soon, I usually plan my gun purchases a year in advance, BUT,

Today, I am thinking about a Thompson Center single-shot rifle (not sure what they are called exactly, Encore, Contender or something else) in .260 Remington. My thoughts are, 6.5 bore and easy case availability [.308, .243] Anyway I would probably eventually buy a .357 magnum barrel and a .22 Hornet barrel to go with it.

My question is, according to an article I read in "Handloader" these rifles may have problems with case stretching (?) or difficulty with reloading and case life due to the fact that because of the weight of the barrel the action can sometimes be open just a little bit, at least not as tight a chamber as a bolt rifle. Does anyone have experience with this? What do you think? Thanks.

exile

[Doc Highwall]

That caliber is available only on the Encore frame. It is a good caliber.

[two dogs]

i have one it does not stretch cases any worse than any other gun i own.just resize to fit your chamber,you wont have problems.also float the forearm. my 22-250 is going on 4000 rounds,shoots between quarter and half inch with 55 grainers all day long.

[BABore]

Single shot, hinged actions like the Encore require different loading techniques than bolt guns. Once you understand things, there are no problems with cases or accuracy If you end up getting an Encore, do some reading on this site for the skinny on loading for them

http://bellmtcs.com/store/

[wallenba]

Put an orientation mark on your cases, fireform them and just neck size them when reloading. The mark will allow you to load it the way it was originally fired. They should last a while.

[exile]

Great info, thanks guys. So if I buy an Encore frame, that would mean that the smaller calibers like the .357 magnum, .22 Hornet and .223 would be a no go with that frame, right? I would have to buy a Contender frame to shoot those smaller calibers? Of course then I could get a S & W 460 barrel, which would be cool as well.

From what I am understanding the lighter calibers are a Contender frame and the heavy calibers are the Encore, just like the pistols, correct? Or maybe they just are the same frame? I think there was a discussion earlier somewhere about needing to be careful about putting a pistol barrel (less than 18 inches) or a frame built for rifles.

Oh well, I am excited, .260 Remington and .460 S & W to start.

exile

[TaylorTN]

The contender tops out at lower pressure rounds than the Encore.

An encore will shoot everything from .17MachII up........to how big a' boy are ya?

They're unique, quirky and fun.

[stubshaft]

The Tender tops out at 45/70. It is a physically lighter weapon than the Encore which has been chambered for some of the short mags and 600NE. Like Taylor said an Encore will shoot virtually every usuable cartridge made and for the cartridges you are anticipating would be a better choice for you. For cartridges like the hornet and 357 the Contender would make a smaller and handier package. I own 4 of each and love the fact that when I want to play for a new caliber I just have to order/ buy another barrel.

[school of mines]

I used a Thompson Center Encore in .308 Win this year for deer hunting in Nebraska. I've reloaded my shells 2 times and haven't had to trim them for length yet. I am using a mild load w/165 grain hornadys. I am still working on the ideal load, but am happy with the performance!

Hope this helps!

[largom]

When buying extra barrels remember that Encore and Contender barrels DO NOT interchange. I have 3 Encore frames and a dozen barrels. If you want that 260 to really shoot firelap the barrel.

school of mines: If your 308 does'nt settle down don't be afraid to firelap it. I have firelaped all of mine and a dozen or so for customers.

Larry

[exile]

Sounds great to me guys.

exile

[leadman]

I have an Encore Pro Hunter in 7mm Rem Magnum. The chamber is long to the shoulder so cases stretch on initial firing. If a full load is used for the first shot case life is veery short. I have fire formed cases with Unique and Crem of Wheat and it helps.
Just haven't gotten around to sending it back to T/C to have the barrel replaced.

I do have 270 and 243 barrels made by Bergara for the Encore that shoot extremely well and about $100 cheaper than T/C barrels.

Before you buy it would be good for you to read the info on the website mentioned previously. Mike has alot of great info on his site about measuring and setting the dies to acheive proper headspacing.

[aaalaska]

Exile if you buy a encore frame you can purchase just about any caliber made from 22 rimfire to 416 or bigger, never checked how big , just not that big on recoil.
I have Encore frames and shoot the 260 rem in both rifle and pistol , never had any problems ,and case life seems about the same as any other weapon.
Your correct about using the frame for a rifle with a pistol barrel, that's a no no, but if you purchase a pistol frame, you can use any barrel, just no barrel under 16 1/4 with a rifle stock. My frames were sold as pistols so as long as you follow the rules you can turn them into rifles and back no problem. They are very accurate ,a little light for really heavy kickers ,unless you enjoy recoil.
I got a good aftermarket stock with good recoil pad, but max loads for the 45/70 will never be what I would call fun,
but the effect on a bear is impressive. I started with contender frames in the 70's they are fun,light, quick. The 10 in 22 is accurate enough to head shoot ptarmigan.223 will shoot better than these old eyes can see, and the 45/70 barrel with light loads [trapdoor] is plenty for moose, and black bear, maybe even the big boys but I'll carry the Encore when I figure the odds of bumping into one the them is high.
Bottom line, any of the TC's is a lot of fun, a lot of people have been shooting with me and the TC's no one has ever said they didn't like them, the big concern here with my friends is the single shoot, most want a quick back up with griz around. Good luck and enjoy.
Alex

[exile]

Again, great information. Thanks.

exile

[exile]

I just checked on the internet. Looks like complete Encore rifles are about $ 600.00 and barrels are between $ 350 and $ 400. A little more than I expected, for the barrels anyway, but what the heck, I imagine once you get started its hard to stop.

exile

[BABore]

Put an orientation mark on your cases, fireform them and just neck size them when reloading. The mark will allow you to load it the way it was originally fired. They should last a while.

That is exactly how not to load for an Encore. I know very well, because that's exactly how I used to do it.

Once upon a time I bought a Bullberry 338 Win Mag bbl for my Encore for a princely sum. I bought a Hornady die set along with a Lee collet neck size die. Starting with brand new brass, I FL sized them and went about load developement with J-boolits. I loaded up 3-round sets at 0.5 grain powder increments. IIRC I had 5 sets of 3 to test. I found a likely sweet spot in my groups and then returned home to load up additional rounds at that charge for further testing. This group was 3/4" IIRC. Wanting even more precision, I neck sized my 15 fireformed rounds and loaded them with my best grouper's charge weight. I then fired 5, 3-shot groups with this load.

Only one out of the 5 groups was even close to my original group. Most were at least twice as large. A couple had two shots touching and one way out. I was dumb founded.

I pondered this a bit and then decided to go back to square one. I again prepped 15 new cases and FL sized them. Then, I again loaded the same 5 sets of 3 with 0.5 grain powder charges. The results, almost identical to my original testing, including the sweet spot. So, bordering on insanity, thinking if I repeat myself again I will get different results, I did just that. I neck sized my 15 new FF rounds and loaded them to the exact same sweet spot. The next weekend I stapled up a new target and fired the first 3 rounds. They went into a 3 1/2" group. At the point I was just livid. After settling down, I said screw it and went about fired the remaining 12 rounds at the same target. They were going all over the place, or so it seemed. After maybe the 9th shot I started to notice something. There was a couple groups starting to form up. Two shots touching over here, two touching over there. When I was finished, I ended up with 5 separate 3-shot groups on that single target. Taken as one 15 shot group, it was about 4 1/2 inches. Taken as individual 3-shot groups, they went between 5/8 and 3/4 inches. So, what the heck happened.

At about the same time I stumbled acrossed Mike Bellm's website. He specializes in T/C's and their inhierent problems. After much reading, I made my own dial indicator headspace gauge that he sells on his site. Then I began to learn what happens to brass in a hinged breech, single shot like the T/C. I also signed up on his T/C forum and met others that also saw the light.

Because the T/C action is hinged, the distance from the hinge pin, to the breech face can stretch under pressure. The distance from the bbl end, to the frame breech face is set by the hinge pin hole and block position. There is some factory tolerance involved here. Some bbl's may have up to 0.010" gap from the breech face when the action is closed. Then you also have the chamber depth to consider. It may be shallow or too deep.

I measured my bbl to breech face gap with a feeler gauge as I had read. My bbl would close tight on a 0.0015 feeler with just a little give. That told me that I had a 0.001" gap. I then pulled the bbl and removed the extractor so I could use my new headspace dial indicator setup. My new, FL sized brass would drop right in. Some would be 0.002 to 0.003" below the end of the bbl chamber. Others would be up to 0.003" above or protruding. I then measured a bunch of fired cases that came from FL sized load developement rounds. They were still sitting in the ammo box in the sets as I had fired them. The starting load showed a protrusion of 0.005". Since I have a 0.001" bbl/BF gap, that meant that the frame had stretched 0.004 upon firing. The next 0.5 grain hotter load showed a 0.007" protrusion. These went on up in a linear fashion to my hottest load which showed a 0.012" protrusion or 0.011" frame stretch.

And in there lied my problem with neck sizing my cases. The neck sized cases, being incrementily longer due to different frame stretching points, preloaded the frame to different amounts when I used them for the same load. Had I somehow have kept them separated into the original 3 round sets, the problem wouldn't have been as evident. This also isn't as apparent when firing factory loads or handloads that are FL sized in a die capable of really FL sizing and pushing the shoulder of the case back to min dimensions.

So, what's the proper solution? I still had about 50 brand new cases left and I just ordered another 100 as well. I dropped each case into the chamber and measured the head position in relation to the bbl end. Based on my readings and prior measurementS, I knew I need to have a case that would be exactly flush with my bbl end. This would give me exactly 0.001" gap or headspace. Measured cases that protruded went into one pile, those that went below the bbl end went into another. I then set up my Hornady FL size die and set it about 0.020" off the shellholder to start with. It didn't bump the should back at all, not even close. With full shellholder contact it still wasn't even close. I resorted to turning 0.030" off of the end of the die to make it work. With some fine tuning, I got the die set so it would give an exact flush fit to my bbl and locked it in place for eternity.

By sizing cases in this fashion, my groups stayed very consistent at around 5/8 to 3/4 " for 3 shots. Before you pooh poo the 3-shot group thing, remember, this is a 338 Win Mag hunting rifle firing 250 grain bullets at 2,600 -2,700 fps. Not being 100% satisfied, I later ordered a Bellm oversized 1x hinge pin and installed it. My gun would now close up like a bank vault. No side-side wobble when it was opened. That alone dropped another 1/4" off of my group size.

So, depending on if you buy ammo or handload, it makes a real difference how you go about things. I originally loaded for the Encore just like I would for a bolt gun as that is how I learned to do things. I learned to adapt to improve things to my expectations.

[Doc Highwall]

One more thing to throw out is you can put a shotgun or muzzle loader barrel on the Encore frame.

[wallenba]

[QUOTE=BABore;827909]That is exactly how not to load for an Encore. I know very well, because that's exactly how I used to do it.

BABore, I can now see how that can happen, it just has not happened to me yet. I load the 30 Herrett in mine ( the only necked case cartridge I have in the Contender, and I keep the velocity lower due to the non gas check cast bullet I use. So it seems to work OK in my MGM barrel.

[BABore]

Rimmed cartridges are much more forgiving. You do have to watch the initial sizing when you first form the cases. Basically, size them down until you can just close the action and get it to lock. In effect, your kind of doing the same thing, but without the fancy methods and reasons. Both the 30 and 357 Herett were touchy on sizing. Bump the shoulder too far and you risk faulty ignition and case head separation in short order when they did go bang. Get em too tight and the action would just close and the hammer may not cock. With the rimmed cases, sizing is more for proper function and ignition. Rimless and belted have the same issues plus accuracy also comes into play. Belted mags are the worst cause it's supposed to headspace on the belt. In practical, real world, accuracy terms, you need to get back to the shoulder junction for headspacing. That is if the depth of cut on the belt area allows it. Sounds way worse than it really is. Just takes a different mind set and techniques.

Ideally, a rimmed cartridge's chamber should be cut with the frame to bbl gap known and compensated for.

[exile]

More great information. Well, today is a new day! I have changed my mind, again, to possibly buying a Contender in 6.5 JDJ. I like the efficiency of the cartridge, seems like it will do just what I want, no more, no less. Anybody have one, I wonder what it costs to get into this cartridge from the ground up, frame, barrel, dies, etc.,.?

Also I have a touch of arthritis, is this going to be a hard-kicking cartridge in a handgun? Seems not, but I thought I would ask?

Seems like every reloader should have at least one "wildcat" cartridge, although since its been around since 1978, it hardly seems that anymore.

Thanks again.

exile