Spencer Brass size & confusion

[barnaclebill]

Well here I am back to the forums again pleading for the great help I have always received.
I have 2 original Spencers 1865 and through all my research the caliber is 57-50. I always thought they were 56-56s but found out that was only for the early ones.
Today I ordered a center fire conversion kit from S&S and started working on profiling my guns. I slugged the barrel .535 and started measuring distance to rifling to see how this corresponded to Spencer cartridge length of 1.675". This overall length would put the tip of my bullet 1/2" into the rifling but of course the bullet will not fit to make it there. I started trimming down a 50-70 case and had to go to 1" before I did not get interference with the chamber. Confusing?

If I trim the case to 1" it almost matches the 56-56 cartridge case as it is .920" and the 56-50 is 1.165".

Anyway I look at it I would need the short case combined with a tapered bullet [I think] to clear the rifling to load without a hammer and then it would not eject very well. My gun is stamped 1865 made by Burnside and is not supposed to use the short 56-56 brass.

So ! Am I going crazy [as usual] or am I missing something here?

[missionary5155]

Good morning
You may have a rifle that was put together with a new receiver and a left over barrel from a previous batch. Most manufacturers were very fond of that practice (good economics). During the war many factories were employed in barrel making and tolerances were sloppy. Plus with balck powder it was more important for a weapon to chamber and fire than to be "target shooting" accurate.
So do not give up. I would make a chamber cast first before grinding down any more 50-70 brass. Plain parafin will give you a good enough working look at what your chamber measures. Plug the barrel just past the chamber area and pore it in hot. I toy with all sorts of old military rifles also. That chamber cast is a first chore after a good cleaning.

[NickSS]

Are you sure its a model 1865? Almost all of them were made by the Burside Rifle company and so marked. From what you say about the bore dimentions it looks like whatever model you have is in 56-56. The 56-50s slug at around 515 to 5-20 and the shell is a little over 1 inch long. I would make a chamber cast to make sure. Is both you rifles the same caliber?

[barnaclebill]

I did use cerracast or?? or whatever it is called and because the rifling has 3 lands I wrapped it with .005" copper , measured it and then subtracted .010" to get .535" bore. Pretty large but rifling is distinct and deep so wear does not appear to be a huge issue but .535 seems a bit excessive !!
I guess I will have to expand the case mouth about .010" to get a bullet to fit. From the back of the mold base to the start of the rifling is 1.196" but it starts tapering at about 1.00" from the base so that limits me to a 1" long case. The model 1865 I am sure about the date as it is stamped clearly on the receiver. I think you may be right on the 56-56 barrel as there is no way I can get a longer than 1" case in this bugger. This defiantly leaves out the option of purchasing ready made brass for 56-50. I have only cast one gun so far and will do the other today to see if I have the same issues. The date marking on the other one is not distinct but It could read 1860 which would make it a 56-56.
I also had to turn down the diameter of the bullet base to .530" to get it to chamber properly.
Thanks for the input, everything helps in a situation like this and I am fairly a neophyte on this subject.

[barnaclebill]

Well I just made a cast of the second Spencer and here are the numbers
First of all it has 6 groove rifling and measures out to .516" bore and the distance from the base of to the start of rifling is 1.210" but it is interesting that it does not taper like the other one but holds its dimension all the way to the rifling so a shell brass of 1.165" long would work making it a 56-50. One of these I am going to make into a shooter so now I must decide the direction to go.

My modified length 50-70 will only go 1/2" into the chamber before interference as the chamber tapers from .562 to .554 and the brass is .560 so it needs resized. Maybe I will just stick with shooting my Sharps.

[MtGun44]

Sounds like an interesting project.

Good luck, keep posting for those of us just watching on the
sidelines.

Bill

[405]

Well, a good chamber cast along with a good bore slug will tell all the details of what the correct cartridge and bore size should be. The conversion kit might work out and allow use of centerfire cases. Instead of trying to fight with 50-70 or whatever to make it work there are sources for some of the Spencer cases for centerfire. Then it's just a matter of best bullet and safe load. Most Spencer cartridges/bullets I've seen look similar to the pic below. The measurements on these are rarely spot on to what is listed as standard, varying by several thous in some of the parameters so it takes a compilation of all the measurements to help ID the cartridge and/or the chamber.

Final thought, if I had one, not sure I would try to convert it if it were all original and in good shape. More power to those who do though.

Pic of original Spencer cartridge- 56-56 Carbine

[barnaclebill]

Hey Montelius Walsh
Good to hear from you again

I agree with you on conversions and this is why I went with one where there are no permanent changes to the original. It only takes a couple minutes to remove the conversion and put it back to original. I just resized my machined 50-70 brass but I have a little issue that I have run into before. The sizing die will not go all the way down to the rim of the brass due to the space that the shell holder is taking up and now the brass will go all the way in the chamber except for the last .100". How do you get it sized all the way to the rim? or can you? Thanks for the pic. More bullet than brass. I have only found 56-50 brass from vendors but cannot find specific dimensions on it. I actually do not mind machining down the 50-70 brass as I have a lathe and it is done quickly. Also the 50-70 brass is 1/2 the cost of the 56-50 brass and it might also have to be machined anyway with all the wild numbers I am getting. Nowhere have I found 56-56 Brass.YET

[405]

Ya right, for a Spencer!
Really it is fairly easy to do. If you can insert a regular headless machine screw into the sizer die and tighten with nut you can chuck it into a drill. Then simply hold the turning die bottom against a bench grinder and take off a little of the bottom of the die. I would check often by running the die farther into the press and checking against a case until you've sized down the case enough so the case chambers easily. As the material is removed from the bottom of the die it allows the resizing die to progress farther down the case body toward the rim and clears the contact with the shell holder. Again, take a little off at a time and check often. The grinding may leave a small burr around the bottom die entry. You can dress that up with some emery paper, while turning in the drill. I've done several dies this way for tight chambers and/or short headspace chambers. With some dies there is only so much that can be removed because at some point the case mouth may run into the end of the sizing portion of the die at the mouth end of the die.

I've even free-handed doing this to a die by holding the die and turning it by hand against a grinder. The better method tho is using the drill to turn the die as it is ground.

Agreed, if the centerfire conversion is straight forward and doesn't alter the original gun then give it a go!

[barnaclebill]

Thanks
I will do it to my 50-70 die. I don't have to worry about the depth on that one. I have a lathe so I will just chuck it up and grind off a little. Hopefully then the shell holder will allow me to get close enough.
Do you know where I can purchase Rapine bullet molds?? I have just looked all over the web at dozens of suppliers and cannot find a source for Rapine molds.Maybe just call Rapine tomorrow.

[405]

You may be out of luck with the Rapine mold idea- link below. And, if you can chuck the die into the lathe then grind that'd work even better.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ghlight=rapine

[NickSS]

I make some 56-50 brass from 348 Win brass. It works fine for me.

[barnaclebill]

I make some 56-50 brass from 348 Win brass. It works fine for me.

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd348winchester.jpg

Now I would not have thought of that with the tapered case and all. How do you go about reforming it? Do you get cracked cases after firing?

[barnaclebill]

Help

When I try to insert an image it asks me for for the path to the image and then inserts that path but not the image--How do I insert the image?
Thanks

[405]

Pic attachment? I guess you can try to insert directly into the subject block. However I just store the pic in a folder on the PC. Then click "Manage Attachments" at bottom of this page and follow that path which will include "browse", "open" and "upload". I use jpeg format and size to between 50 and 100kb. Seems to always work.

As far as loading for the original Spencers-- that is such a rare and seldom traveled path, info is hard to come by. So not much help from me. But I'll give the specs of this 56-56 original cartridge. It doesn't match the listed specs precisely but is close enough considering all dimensions that by default I'm sure that's what it is. The specs of an original cartridge most likely will fit a Spencer so chambered. References like COTW have the specs for a lot of these obsolete rimfires.

OAL 1.660
Case Length .898
Neck .558
Base .561
Rim .645
Rim Thickness .060
Bullet .545

Good luck!

[barnaclebill]

Thanks for the info

I am machining several aluminum blocks to fit my Lee handles and going to machine up some bullet molds since I cannot find any of the correct ones. I guess I will be loading both 56-56 and 56-50 cartridges. It appears that both bullets are the same at about 350gn. I have been looking for dimensions of the bullets but have not found them yet. I have all the info except for the length of the bullet itself. I am assuming that it is set approx 1/4" into the brass on the 56-56 which would make a bullet length of 1".That length bullet would sit 1/2" into the 56-50 brass. It would be nice to measure an original but I have non of those handy.

[405]

Yep,
I tried to design one using the Mountain Mold design program. Set at .545 diameter and 370 grains with a nose configuration similar to the original ... they are short, would have a fairly short shank and wouldn't be seated very deeply into the case. No, I'm not going to tear down an original round to get the specs of an original bullet

Quote, "Nowhere have I found 56-56 Brass.YET " Don't know where you've looked but BACO (Buffalo Arms) lists 56-50 and 56-56 brass along with some reloading dies-- just in case the re-forming/sizing doesn't work out. The bullet may be the tricky one but should be able to come close via one of the custom mold makers like Mountain Molds. I think with some careful study and work on the MM design program you should be able to come up with a "correct" bullet for one of the Spencers for just north of $100.

[NickSS]

I anneal new cases down quite a bit just leave like 1/2 inch in water. Then I load like 15 gr of Red Dot and fill the case with corn meal with a wax plug on top and fire them in my 50-70 Sharps. I cut them to length with a tube cutter for either 50-70 or 5650 spencer. I have to ream the inside of the spencer cases as they are thick. I foget the size reamer I bought for it but it was not hard to figure out.

[barnaclebill]

This is dynamite information you guys are giving me. This is beginning to be a fun project. I enjoy the challenges presented here. I just installed the S&S Spencer center fire conversion [$170] and have been spending some time lapping in the dimensions so it will fit properly. It was interesting to discover that the lever hinge pin diameter has a huge influence on the operation. The loose pin will let the action work smooth and a snug pin will lock it up. I discovered this as I had both Spencer's disassembled and mixed up the pins.---A little more lapping of the S&S conversion will solve the binding problem.

Nickss--A little tutorial on your annealing technique would be appreciated.

I just looked at the MM design program and I think that will solve my problem--Thanks for the idea. I am going to machine my own bullet mold so I can modify it as needed and also learn a little more of the technique of producing molds. Come on --lets tear a bullet apart ! I did a little research for "as dug" bullets from the war and found a couple in great condition and they measure out to be .92" long. That gets pretty close to my 1" guess and also gives a good visual as to the actual shape of the original of which I will have to modify to get the flat tip. This is where that design program will come in handy.
If nothing else I am getting a good education of Spencer rifles.
Next comes the Roper Rifle !
Thanks for being here and putting up with me
BB

[barnaclebill]

Yep,
I tried to design one using the Mountain Mold design program. Set at .545 diameter and 370 grains with a nose configuration similar to the original ... they are short, would have a fairly short shank and wouldn't be seated very deeply into the case. No, I'm not going to tear down an original round to get the specs of an original bullet

Quote, "Nowhere have I found 56-56 Brass.YET " Don't know where you've looked but BACO (Buffalo Arms) lists 56-50 and 56-56 brass along with some reloading dies-- just in case the re-forming/sizing doesn't work out. The bullet may be the tricky one but should be able to come close via one of the custom mold makers like Mountain Molds. I think with some careful study and work on the MM design program you should be able to come up with a "correct" bullet for one of the Spencers for just north of $100.

Just looked through my cabinet and found that I had ordered 5 56-50s a long time ago from Buffalo arms and they are cut down 50-70s. Thats the reason they were so expensive. I started designing a bullet but then realized that what I was ending up with was a short 50-70 that i mold for my Sharps so I took a couple dozen to the machine lathe and cut them down to .780" which measures out to 350gr with the flat nose so I can use the center fire conversion. I think I am getting a handle on this Spencer thing finally. Thanks for all the help.
BB