How good can you see?

[healey55]

Hi.. New here and was reading one of the threads about accuracy.

I have been shooting for 50 years. I wear glasses now and really miss my old 20/15 vision. They tell me it is still 20/15 corrected but it sure don't seem like it.

I have been doing a lot of shooting at 50 yards which I think is a great intermediate range. Mostly I have been checking some M1 garand loads and working on a good load for my 44 Henry bb that will also work good in my 44 revolvers.

Soooo.. to get to the point. No matter what rifle I shoot.. I get best groups with the best guns and loads of maybe 1 1/2".. Mostly two inch for good guns and loads.

That is the best I can see. I admit it. For revolvers.. with their normal sights and such.. I get 4" groups if I am doing my part from my 4" 44 guns (lots of 4's)

All my shooting is open sights. I don't own a gun with a scope.

I have been reading here how guys get sub one inch groups at 50 yards with their handguns. With open sights? for 12 rounds? I used to be a better shot when I was younger.. shot a thousand rounds a month but no way could I shoot sub one inch groups at 50 yards for 12 round groups.

When I look at the front sight and make it clear, the 3" bull I use is fuzzy enough to be maybe.. what? 50% bigger counting the fuzz than it really is? pretty hard to make everything line up and find the center (or within an inch of it) much less take into consideration the mechanical problems of load and gun.

I have a K22 masterpiece that is pretty accurate. Smith used to claim that the gun was capable of shooting 1" groups at 50 yards. At ten yards.. I can shoot less than half inch groups with it. At 50 yards.. it will shoot, for me.. the same 4" groups that I get with other handguns.

I am thinking that, at 50 yards, using rifle sights.. the best I can see to hit is a 2" group and that with handguns and their less precise and harder to use sights.. that 4" is the best that I can see. Oddly.. or not.. 100 yards is not all that much worse.

[44man]

Hi.. New here and was reading one of the threads about accuracy.

I have been shooting for 50 years. I wear glasses now and really miss my old 20/15 vision. They tell me it is still 20/15 corrected but it sure don't seem like it.

I have been doing a lot of shooting at 50 yards which I think is a great intermediate range. Mostly I have been checking some M1 garand loads and working on a good load for my 44 Henry bb that will also work good in my 44 revolvers.

Soooo.. to get to the point. No matter what rifle I shoot.. I get best groups with the best guns and loads of maybe 1 1/2".. Mostly two inch for good guns and loads.

That is the best I can see. I admit it. For revolvers.. with their normal sights and such.. I get 4" groups if I am doing my part from my 4" 44 guns (lots of 4's)

All my shooting is open sights. I don't own a gun with a scope.

I have been reading here how guys get sub one inch groups at 50 yards with their handguns. With open sights? for 12 rounds? I used to be a better shot when I was younger.. shot a thousand rounds a month but no way could I shoot sub one inch groups at 50 yards for 12 round groups.

When I look at the front sight and make it clear, the 3" bull I use is fuzzy enough to be maybe.. what? 50% bigger counting the fuzz than it really is? pretty hard to make everything line up and find the center (or within an inch of it) much less take into consideration the mechanical problems of load and gun.

I have a K22 masterpiece that is pretty accurate. Smith used to claim that the gun was capable of shooting 1" groups at 50 yards. At ten yards.. I can shoot less than half inch groups with it. At 50 yards.. it will shoot, for me.. the same 4" groups that I get with other handguns.

I am thinking that, at 50 yards, using rifle sights.. the best I can see to hit is a 2" group and that with handguns and their less precise and harder to use sights.. that 4" is the best that I can see. Oddly.. or not.. 100 yards is not all that much worse.

Welcome to the club of old folks. If I had the revolvers I have now with the vision I had then---WOW. But I do miss a lot of the older rifles that would shoot better then many new ones. So did some of the old scopes. Now a huge pile of money needs to be spent for accuracy. A good scope costs more then the rifle. But Savage, weatherby Mark 5's and Vanguard's still shoot. Others are good but it seems the pre 64 Winchester and a lot of the old lever guns were better then what we buy now. Even some of the original muzzle loaders shoot better then the new inline junk.
Vision IS a problem. But many times it is not to blame.
Now the K22 is one of the best and you will find that a loss of accuracy is NOT the gun but the ammo today. .22 ammo SUCKS now. Notice how every shot sounds different? That never happened long ago. Target .22's are still good but many guns are not rifled for target loads.
Anyway, even with vision that gets old, if the gun or load will not do it, neither can you.

[felix]

There is more to seeing than what meets the eye. Plus, the accuracy of the impulse from the eye, to the brain, to the trigger at the right time. BR guns now use 45X scopes to better see the weather. 99 percent of us who shoot BR cannot connect the dots necessary to ever compete with the 1 percent who can. ... felix

[Lead Fred]

Still have 20/15, I can see a pretty gal 3 blocks away.
Just cant see up close any more.
When shooting open sights I tend to wear Ben Franklins.
I did move my rear sight up my barrel on the flintlock when I built it.
It and the M1 Garand have good long sight pictures.
Its the saddle guns that get fuzzy.

[Bucks Owin]

I started dusting lampblack on my front handgun sights a couple years ago for bench shootin' and "wouldn't leave home without it" now...FWIW

[Geraldo]

99 percent of us who shoot BR cannot connect the dots necessary to ever compete with the 1 percent who can. ... felix

What a great quote.

I finally reached the point where I need "cheaters" for close work, but my distance vision is good. I do have a slight astigmatism in my right eye that I'm sure has some slight effect on my shooting, but I'm not willing to switch to shooting lefty just yet. The future appears to be glass on Contender barrels, peeps on muzzleloaders, and gold bead front sights on 1911s, but for now I can work with any sighting system.

[dubber123]

I don't think I've ever fired a 12 shot group in my life. I do like to shoot all chambers. I have had plenty of 3 shot groups that were exceptional, but I don't think that proves a whole lot on a 6 shot gun. Supposedly my eyes are corrected to better than 20/20, but it doesn't seem so to me....

2 weekends ago, I did shoot a .978" 5 shot group at 50 meters. I did shoot all 6, and 1 didn't feel "right" The total 6 shot group was 1.3". 4 were in .51". This was with an iron sighted S&W Mod 14. No, I can't do it every time. My .475 averaged 1.5" for 5 when I shot it daily, also iron sights. Try different target sizes. I like a 2-3/8" black bull for 50 meters.

[Johnch]

Even with glasses iron sights are hard for me

So I shoot a scope or red dot on almost all my pistols

Expect for the ones for self defence

Years ago I could see well enought to shoot IHMSA , and shoot a few 40's

But small groups ....never
With iron sights I can't do better than 3 - 4" at 100 , even with a rifle and load that will shoot sub 1"



John

[gray wolf]

A good eye Doc. can build you a set of specs that may be able to balance out the distance a little better. I have the same problem--trifocals here. I can only use a peep sight on a rifle or a scope. With the handgun I make do.
Once you deal with the fact of what is happening (age) and get passed it you understand that it don't get better and you look for a little help ( scope the rifles and don't look back)
Just go with what is going on so you can enjoy your shooting.

[waksupi]

I found with open sights, I can widen the back notch, and be able to get a good sight picture again, with the front sight pretty clear. Made a big difference for me, I can shoot without glasses fairly well again.

[RayinNH]

Healey, I can't see either. I'm 55 and have been wearing corrective lenses since I was 9. I wore glasses as a kid then got contact lenses at about 20 years old.

I use iron sights as well, and my shooting parallels yours, 1 1/2-2" groups at fifty yards with a rifle. I usually don't bother at 100 any longer, it just adds a lot of walking, which can be a good thing at times . I usually don't go beyond 25 yards for handgun shooting, and those groups go about 2-3" depending on the day. Just for the halibut I'll try at fifty yards if someone has left some untouched clay pidgeons on the berm.

With the contact lenses windy days play havoc. My eyes water and I have to stop until my eyes dry a bit and clear. One thing that helps some is the Merit optical device. It's a unit that suction cups itself to your shooting glasses. It has an adjustable iris similar to a camera lens. It helps to clarify the sight picture. Not a miracle cure but it does help some.

Welcome to getting older, and Cast Boolits...Ray

[Edubya]

The older that I get, the better that I was!
I'm 64 and I'm just glad to be able to participate in this shootin and loadin hobby. I've got more physical problems than eyesight and it ain't gettin any better.
EW

[fecmech]

I'm 67 yrs old and like you "had" 20/15 vision but at that time did not do 50 yd group shooting. I cheated and bought a Ransom rest for my ammo testing. That said I've now gone over to the "Dark" side and use red dot sights on the handguns. With the peep sights on my rifles I can easily bench 1-1.5" groups@ 50 yds if the guns can do it. D&T that pretty brass Big Boy for a receiver sight or a tang sight and you can too!

[Doc Highwall]

I wish I had even 20/20, my vision is 20/28 to 20/32 with 3.25 diopters of astigmatism in my good eye and my right eye is 10/400.

[leadeye]

I tried this for what its worth and it helped me with open sight handguns. Determine your master eye and take the glass out of your reading glasses for the other eye. Might not be a good long term solution but it did make it easier to see the sights without fuzzing the target.

[wallenba]

I have an astigmatism in my dominant eye, and just had cataract surgery on it too. They put a Toric implant on it to help correct the astigmatism too. My open sight shooting has improved dramatically at 50 yards. My Opthamologist also recommended trying a stick-on diopter to help with resolution. That helped too. See your eye doctor, and discuss your shooting needs.
The diopter is cheap too, worth a try. http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#dio...__-_1-2-4_8-16

[stubshaft]

Use a "Merit eyglass shooting aperature". I have used one for years and allows you to see the sights and target clearly. I also got fancy when shooting silly wett and bought a Knobloch. I couldn't shoot decent groups without one.

[geargnasher]

Hi.. New here and was reading one of the threads about accuracy.

I have been shooting for 50 years. I wear glasses now and really miss my old 20/15 vision. They tell me it is still 20/15 corrected but it sure don't seem like it.

I have been doing a lot of shooting at 50 yards which I think is a great intermediate range. Mostly I have been checking some M1 garand loads and working on a good load for my 44 Henry bb that will also work good in my 44 revolvers.

Soooo.. to get to the point. No matter what rifle I shoot.. I get best groups with the best guns and loads of maybe 1 1/2".. Mostly two inch for good guns and loads.

That is the best I can see. I admit it. For revolvers.. with their normal sights and such.. I get 4" groups if I am doing my part from my 4" 44 guns (lots of 4's)

All my shooting is open sights. I don't own a gun with a scope.

I have been reading here how guys get sub one inch groups at 50 yards with their handguns. With open sights? for 12 rounds? I used to be a better shot when I was younger.. shot a thousand rounds a month but no way could I shoot sub one inch groups at 50 yards for 12 round groups.

When I look at the front sight and make it clear, the 3" bull I use is fuzzy enough to be maybe.. what? 50% bigger counting the fuzz than it really is? pretty hard to make everything line up and find the center (or within an inch of it) much less take into consideration the mechanical problems of load and gun.

I have a K22 masterpiece that is pretty accurate. Smith used to claim that the gun was capable of shooting 1" groups at 50 yards. At ten yards.. I can shoot less than half inch groups with it. At 50 yards.. it will shoot, for me.. the same 4" groups that I get with other handguns.

I am thinking that, at 50 yards, using rifle sights.. the best I can see to hit is a 2" group and that with handguns and their less precise and harder to use sights.. that 4" is the best that I can see. Oddly.. or not.. 100 yards is not all that much worse.

Some people can probably see well enough to shoot those kinds of groups with open-sighted pistols (I used to be one), but as Felix pointed out there's a lot more to it than seeing.

I can shoot 1.25", 10-shot groups all day with my FIL's M29 Smith at 50, but I have to use an Ultradot. Same gun shoots 3-4" for me at 100, tried a bunch of different loads, but the bottom line is it has a 4 MOA dot, and it's damn near impossible for me to shoot groups much smaller than the dot.

While most of my shooting now involves open-sight pistol and levergun plinking at less than 50 yards, I have to use crutches for any kind of precision shooting because I developed Pars Planitis in both eyes a few years ago and the floaters and retinal scarring in my central vision make everything look like driving in the rain with no wipers. The red dot helps see through the maze of junk. I have to use REALLY good scopes on my rifles. I still technically have 20/16 in my dominant and 20-18 in my other eye, lot of good it does me in the Real World, though.

Even when I was younger, had perfect vision, and pretending to compete in BR I didn't have what it took to shoot tiny handgun groups, even from a rest. Just not cut out for it.

I know lots of people who CAN'T see well enough to shoot tiny open-sighted pistol groups and do anyway, they just use ZEN.

Gear

[44man]

For you red dot shooters, 50 yards is easy with a paper target just a tad larger then the dot but 100 will be a bust with any paper target.
I find setting the bottom of the dot on a pop cans top will tighten groups. Seems as if I need a 3D target instead of flat paper.
A can is even easier with open sights. I gave up shooting paper beyond 50, just back up the can with paper. Find the color can that will show up or paint it, you need good, sharp contrast.

[Swamprat1052]

I have the same problem. I couldnt focus on the front site and see the target clearly. My handgun shooting was terrible. I wear bifocals. My optomotrist suggested the progressive lenses on my glasses. I can raise or lower my head and bring the site picture into focus with the glasses he made for me. My shooting improved greatly.

The "Golden Years" arent nearly as golden as they are made out to be.

Swamprat