cast bullets question

[songdog33]

What Bass Ackward had said about my measurements, I thought it was kind of weird, considering all I have read about Rugers and how they are choked where the barrel threads into the frame. I sluggged the barrel twice at both end with cerrosafeto be sure, and ran a slug down the barrel to see if I had any tight spots. That's what started this whole mess. I read something and thought I should look into this and see if it applies to my gun and, lets make this a tack driver with my new found "smarts" that I gained from this, LOL. Thanks guys. I realize there is way too much to learn.

[44man]

Yes, there are other ways to reach what you want, but the work is not worth it. I don't even think about leading when I work with a boolit, only sustained accuracy. I want good case tension with any powder the same as I use for slow powder and that leaves out soft lead because it will sure cause sizing when seating and lead to leading and poor accuracy. I do not want to reduce case tension nor do I want squeezed down soft boolits to slump back to bore size with pressure.
By the way, that RCBS boolit is .430" in a .4324" throat so you see as I reduced skid, accuracy improved. Fast powder, low pressure loads are very harsh on a boolit.
The gun shoots like a laser with .430" jacketed bullets so why not increase hardness to match the jacketed as close as you can. Where is it printed that soft lead will shoot like jacketed? There are a million variables to overcome with soft lead. Why ruin a boolit when seating, shooting to slump, slam them into a forcing cone and skid the rifling?
Runfiverun, no, lube will not save a boolit, if you want to see, remove that groove from the boolit and replace it with lead, then show the skid stopped. If lead won't stop skidding how can any lube? It does not strengthen a boolit. Then you will squeeze it away at the gap and cone anyway when the boolit slumps.
I can cast a gas check in the mold at the front drive band and use a gas check on the base, then a little softer lead can be used. The checks help resist seat sizing somewhat and grab the rifling better but at what cost.
Now answer another question, how many of you get lead on the front of your cylinder and on the frame? How many get leading between the brass and throats?
If anyone would go back through the archives at every shooting site, what is the most common question asked? "How do I prevent leading or how do I remove leading?" The most common answer is to "Make the boolit softer?????" Sure, sometimes a softer lead can remove leading but go bang noise makers are not what I have my revolvers for.

[cbrick]

A bit off topic of this thread but since it was mentioned . . .

Shooting GCs "can" .... minimize stripping.

I've always found that statement interesting. As I see it, the front (driving) band is what first hits the rifling and is what strips. The gas check is on the rear of the boolit and while the front driving band is stripping (assuming it is) the gas check is still in the throat. Could someone please explain how the check is supposed to stop, minimize or in any other way alter the front band from stripping (assuming it is)? If your boolit is stripping in the rifling all the way back to the check you have far more problems than a gas check could ever help. In this case by the time the check gets to the rifling you already have a leaded bore because the entire boolit has already stripped before the check gets there.

I can cast a gas check in the mold at the front drive band and use a gas check on the base, then a little softer lead can be used.

44man, how did those Wilks checks work?

Rick

[Bass Ackward]

A bit off topic of this thread but since it was mentioned . . .



I've always found that statement interesting. As I see it, the front (driving) band is what first hits the rifling and is what strips. The gas check is on the rear of the boolit and while the front driving band is stripping (assuming it is) the gas check is still in the throat. Could someone please explain how the check is supposed to stop, minimize or in any other way alter the front band from stripping (assuming it is)? Rick

Rick,

Key word in all of that was can.

When pressure exceeds a bullet obturates it moves out until it is supported by steel. The harder it is pushed over the hardness of the bullet, the more friction it will produce and the more a lube will have to over come. The key has to be bullet length and shortness of the cone. If the front is entering the rifling while the base is still under pressure in the throat, then that friction is going to aid bullet inertia and add to the stress on the front band. If you are shooting throat diameter that is much above bore, then you also have that friction fighting against rotation.

One of the biggest reasons it is harder to shoot PB in a new gun until the cylindrical ridges are worn some from the throats and the forcing cone. After they are gone, much less friction. And thus freedom to do more things. You can also add misalignment to this if you think about it. Push harder on something and it creates more friction. My assumption is that obturating lead causes more friction than a copper check. I get that because I never have copper in a bore when I shoot checks. But I can have lead if I over stress it.

[Bass Ackward]

What Bass Ackward had said about my measurements, I thought it was kind of weird, considering all I have read about Rugers and how they are choked where the barrel threads into the frame. I sluggged the barrel twice at both end with cerrosafeto be sure, and ran a slug down the barrel to see if I had any tight spots. That's what started this whole mess. I read something and thought I should look into this and see if it applies to my gun and, lets make this a tack driver with my new found "smarts" that I gained from this, LOL. Thanks guys. I realize there is way too much to learn.

Don't take that negatively. I would consider your situation to be just about ideal.

My point in mentioning this is that steel that is negatively contributing will be worn until it no longer does so.

The rest of the folks are generally correct though, if your desire is to run faster, then you will have more flexibility with a larger or harder bullet. But both Lee and Lyman laid their reputations on bore size for decades and lived with it. I say try it first. You may just find that as you learn and add some tin, that that mold actually will give you what you need. So why throw in the towel right off.

[Bass Ackward]

I can, it is NOT pressure, it is WHEN the pressure hits the boolit.
Don't you know my slow powder loads are EASIER on a boolit then those low pressure loads you tell me I never shoot!

Ain't that what I said? If the base obturates it WILL resist rotation more. SO the harder bullet can help you two ways. Dusting off those targets says that don't it. (In your case) And you have to over match pressure plus hold with the wear.

Look, I got my Redhawk and got excited and designed a 265 grain bore ride nose mold for it that matched the .418 bore (rifling height). 1200 rounds later that height is now .424 which is about .003 with a much more gradual taper. (longer at even lower rifling height) at the cone down from .006.

Do you think that this wear removed my flexibility to shoot soft? I can tell you that it went right out the window or muzzle actually. Would the wear have been less if the rifling were wider? Probably. I can tell you that it would have been less also if I had started with a bore diameter (.429) GC slug instead of a .432 PB. And had I shot less pressure / velocity instead of smoking it. But it is what it is now. So for it I must shoot rocks.

[44man]

A bit off topic of this thread but since it was mentioned . . .



I've always found that statement interesting. As I see it, the front (driving) band is what first hits the rifling and is what strips. The gas check is on the rear of the boolit and while the front driving band is stripping (assuming it is) the gas check is still in the throat. Could someone please explain how the check is supposed to stop, minimize or in any other way alter the front band from stripping (assuming it is)? If your boolit is stripping in the rifling all the way back to the check you have far more problems than a gas check could ever help. In this case by the time the check gets to the rifling you already have a leaded bore because the entire boolit has already stripped before the check gets there.



44man, how did those Wilks checks work?

Rick

This is true and even though a very hard boolit is still stripping the front band in my .475 and 45-70 I find great accuracy as long as it does not extend to the base. I need at least 25 BHN for both guns but even that will not stop wider front band engraving. There is just too much inertia and velocity in combination. If I could stop it completely I am sure accuracy would be better.
Using a gas check does snub skid at the base if the boolit is hard but soft lead just will not stop skidding and the check will over run too. I see this with a softer, gas checked hunting boolit in the 45-70, I get a lot of fliers. Not bad enough to affect hunting so I have to use them.
My .45 with a 347 gr boolit shows perfect engraving right to the nose, no skid at all. I have not recovered my latest batch of .44's yet, there is 4 feet of snow on my boolit trap!
The front and rear gas checks work pretty good but are such a pain to make and cost so much, I don't bother. Since I am only set up for the .44 and a very hard boolit will kill deer like crazy, there is no need to soften them, ditto the .45 and .475. No expansion at all is needed in these calibers. Any expansion would tear up half the meat.
I am going to make the tools for the .475 and 45-70 just to see if I can increase accuracy with the PB boolits and allow just WW's to work. I would rather use one check then buy more antimony.
I get no leading in my guns at all as long as the base band is not over engraved, even with a PB as long as the boolit is hard enough but as soon as the land marks on the base get wider, I get strips of lead. Lead does not seem to get rubbed off, only gas cut off.
I would love to solve all skidding but it seems a jacketed bullet is the only way right now.
OOPS, I just found a .44 boolit in the pile I have on the bench. It is a very hard 25 BHN boolit and I measure the land marks at the nose .020" wider then on the gas check. My water dropped WW .475 boolit has marks on the nose .090" wider then the base and the marks on the base are wider then the lands--It leaded my barrel. This boolit needs to be 30 BHN. (This boolit is .910" long and is engraved a length of .725".) If all that length will not stop skid to the base, what would you do?
The heavy .45 boolit has equal marks nose to base.
I also found the RD 265 gr .44 boolit needs to be very hard and it needs a gas check because of the tiny bands with those silly TL grooves. It has built in skid but will hold 3/4" at 50 yards.
More cast shooters should recover and study more boolits. Some believe in professor gun but professor boolit is not as liberal and knows more!
Ask me if I want to shoot pure lead with a little tin added!

[Bass Ackward]

Very interesting post. See I do recover too. I lose a lot to expansion and break up, but some eventually are worth while to view. And I don't see what you see.

Why? Well you wonder why I consider wear? Let me give you an example.

Two 44 loads in two guns with a 240 grain bullet: In one gun bullet travel until impact with the rifling is roughly .750". (My S&W) This includes the cone length. The second gun has only a slightly elongated cone that alters this distance to 1.250". (My Redhawk)

(Eye opening how just slight wear on the cone depth and angle on the rifling adds up quick) What does this do to two impact velocities of the two loads in each gun?


7gr BE
Velocity at impact in the 3/4 gun, 500 fps. The 1.25 gun, 632fps.

24 gr of 296
Velocity in the 3/4" gun, 697 fps. The 1.25 gun 900 fps.


So from looking at this the Redhawk with the slight wear needs almost as hard a bullet for the light BE load as the S&W does with the full power 296 load.

Now visualize increasing bullet weight which increases inertia to resist rotation?

So you asked, "If all that length will not stop skid to the base, what would you do?"

My answer would be to shorten the distance and set the barrel back. Now imagine how low the velocity would be if you only had .300 jump like my line bore 44 without a cone.

7 gr of BE: 290fps

24 gr 296: 395fps

Very little difference between the max and pipsqueak load that can shoot 20-1. Think I can shoot 20-1 with a check with the 296?

Which gun do you think needs the harder bullet to prevent stripping?

Then does every gun need that hard of a bullet? And that is why wear is important for lead. So says Professor Gun.

[44man]

Very interesting post. See I do recover too. I lose a lot to expansion and break up, but some eventually are worth while to view. And I don't see what you see.

Why? Well you wonder why I consider wear? Let me give you an example.

Two 44 loads in two guns with a 240 grain bullet: In one gun bullet travel until impact with the rifling is roughly .750". (My S&W) This includes the cone length. The second gun has only a slightly elongated cone that alters this distance to 1.250". (My Redhawk)

(Eye opening how just slight wear on the cone depth and angle on the rifling adds up quick) What does this do to two impact velocities of the two loads in each gun?


7gr BE
Velocity at impact in the 3/4 gun, 500 fps. The 1.25 gun, 632fps.

24 gr of 296
Velocity in the 3/4" gun, 697 fps. The 1.25 gun 900 fps.


So from looking at this the Redhawk with the slight wear needs almost as hard a bullet for the light BE load as the S&W does with the full power 296 load.

Now visualize increasing bullet weight which increases inertia to resist rotation?

So you asked, "If all that length will not stop skid to the base, what would you do?"

My answer would be to shorten the distance and set the barrel back. Now imagine how low the velocity would be if you only had .300 jump like my line bore 44 without a cone.

7 gr of BE: 290fps

24 gr 296: 395fps

Very little difference between the max and pipsqueak load that can shoot 20-1. Think I can shoot 20-1 with a check with the 296?

Which gun do you think needs the harder bullet to prevent stripping?

Then does every gun need that hard of a bullet? And that is why wear is important for lead. So says Professor Gun.

OK, Bass, put your thinking cap on.
BFR .475, forcing cone depth to rifling-.150", Gap--.002", distance from ogive contact to rifling--.372".
420 gr WFN, .910" long, engraved portion, .725".
26 gr of 296, velocity 1329 fps.
How fast is my boolit going in .372"?
The amount of boolit in the brass, .575", from what I figure, my boolit is still .037" IN THE BRASS when it hits the rifling.
Now you have a better picture of how to stop my boolit from skidding full length.
Now explain how you came up with your rifling impact velocity figures? I don't think you can figure it and it is a WAG.
It seems as if my BFR only has .072" more to travel then your theoretical line bored gun with no cone.
No, you will not have any luck with a 20 to 1 boolit in your .44 with 296, it will only go bang, lead the heck out of the gun and be about as good as my .410 shotgun. In fact your BE load has to be ruining the boolit too, maybe worse then you think.
Maybe you should show 50 and 100 yard groups. I would also love to see recovered boolits.
Just maybe you should buy a BFR. Then learn to make hard boolits!

[Bass Ackward]

No, you will not have any luck with a 20 to 1 boolit in your .44 with 296, it will only go bang, lead the heck out of the gun and be about as good as my .410 shotgun. In fact your BE load has to be ruining the boolit too, maybe worse then you think.
Maybe you should show 50 and 100 yard groups. I would also love to see recovered boolits.
Just maybe you should buy a BFR. Then learn to make hard boolits!

Have you got that hat on? Take it off, too much heat up there or blood ain't gettin there right.

You went right to the fact (attacked) that I couldn't possibly know. What is important is the velocity relationships (don't dwell on actual figures) to show why one guy may need more than someone else and why you see so much variance in recommendations.

If you don't strip, then it is just a matter of lube and load. See I have had 12 BHN at the rotational force of 210,000 RPMs. That is some force on fairly soft lead. And it didn't strip until it began to leave the bore. I know because the stripping began at the back of the bullet and moved forward as I went up.

Now let me give you some more to think about. If your drive area consists of .024 (6 X .004) which bullet will stand less of a chance of stripping, a 357 caliber? Or a 475? A 320 gr bullet? Or a 420 grainer? One with the base still still experiencing .... superior case neck tension? Or a shorter one traveling free at bore size?

If you got all of that then I can tell you to anneal your checks. See a hard check imprint sharp on the surface, but be rounded on the lead side which has no bite and will slip on the shank but not indicate it on the rifling until until it is WAY passed failure. That's how you get stripping all the way down the length. That will cut down your 45-70 fliers some. Then coat with LLA after you lube up to get rid of it all. (that hurt huh? )

Quickload said that your velocity should have been 1320, so this aught to be believable. 432 fps was predicted at .372. Answer anything for ya? Pressure is about 46.5k. Probably a tad high for 20-1.

I can set any number of variables for the chart and then put the cursor right there and get "accurate" (by the program) readouts both X and Y. I can tell you how much of your powder has burnt at that point. Or how much pressure you will have when you get there. OR does pressure peek when your base clears the cylinder and is hanging in mid air in the cone or after it is supported by the bore. Stuff like that.

And my LB 44 is not only a short jump but an 8 lands Shilen with .032 of drive area. (It was built for lead) So I don't need as hard to hold the rifling if I don't strip. And that gun doesn't. 20-1 is a little hard for me to recover at those velocities, but if I ever find one clean enough to tell the story, I will send it to ya. It washes but it don't build up, seriously. I quit with antimony in it.

This should give you an indication of how old timers shot soft lead and why they didn't want antimony when they had plenty of access to it. People always wondered why an N-Frame Smith had such a short cylinder when lead was all they had to shoot. Cut the jump and taller and wider rifling. Not more accurate, just more flexible to handle soft.

OR why an olgival that extends out and cuts jump by 25% might do better than a semi at the same hardness. And the list goes on and on once you understand the mechanics. Do what you gotta do to hold and that is simply get harder and use stronger designs is your only non gun altering choice.

[44man]

Bass, no heat nor anger, you know that. I enjoy these discussions. Just want to know how the figures come up and it seems they are predictions from Quickload. Now just how did they arrive at the predictions?
Yes I came up in those days of shooting soft lead and I can tell you with certainty that there were a LOT of problems that you seem to think did not exist. To try and correct them the gas check, Zinc washers cast in the base, the Wilke check, paper patching and on and on was tried. Then someone got smart and started to make jacketed bullets for revolvers. It is no mystery to me, it did not work very good and to ignore history is to repeat it.
(There were a lot of fellas fooling with hardening lead back then, getting away from the BP thinking.)
Now let me give you some more dimensions, this time my BFR 45-70.
317 gr boolit cast at 25 BHN, 31 gr of 4759, velocity 1632 fps.
How about distance to ogive contact of .912"?
Yet this boolit only has front drive band engraving .020" wider then the base band and is the boolit that shoots the most 1" groups at 100 yards and is stable and accurate at 500 meters. This gun only needs 3 BHN more hardness to shoot that good and even water dropped WW's at 22 BHN are no problem but just not as accurate, 3/4" at 50.
The big 378 gr PB WFN only skids with a softer lead, as soon as I harden it a few points, accuracy equals the lighter boolit.
How do you explain it?
How do you explain a 347 gr boolit going 1167 fps from my Vaquero showing zero skid?
There is more to this game then predictions and paper figures and is counter productive. Best to fix the problem right away and stop fooling with trying to make a boolit work that will not in the end.
How can adding more lube and LLA to make the boolit more slippery stop skid? What does lube have to do with it?
Why does a .38 special with 20 to 1 and 4 gr of BE fill the barrel, the front of the cylinder and the frame with lead? A piddly 148 gr boolit should spin right off, shouldn't it?
I went in and got my hat to put on for you!
I wish we lived close together, we could have fun.
You do make one point though, almost no case tension on a soft boolit, slippery lube, weak crimp and the boolit will pop against the rifling nice and slow from primer pressure.

[Bass Ackward]

How about 612. I don't have 4759, so I generated the same velocity with 5744. It will be ball park. By the way, you are at the pinnacle of pressure on the base at that point.

This whole discussion has BEEN about understanding mechanics that result in someone doing what they have to do. Maybe the best way to describe it as why some don't have to do as much as others to prevent stripping. There is absolutely no reason to shoot harder than you have to.

And I know that there were problems back then. They worshiped the GC. But they didn't see a little lead as a show stopper and expected to clean. And they wouldn't clean until their cylinders wouldn't index any longer.

I am not going to theorize for you about the anneal of the checks and the LLA. After you do it, see if the fliers are less wild. Then you explain why or why not. Use a light coat. Light is not the same as thin either. Cut the charge by .3 grain.

Here is a great question. <<How do you explain a 347 gr boolit going 1167 fps from my Vaquero showing zero skid?>> This is not against heavy slugs. Just why you may require more hardness than someone who is not. Glad you own something that works because you are saddled with sooooo many problems.

<<I wish we lived close together, we could have fun.>> Right now I'd settle for being able to get to the range. Drifts are running up to 15 ft. I got bored and tried one of those western snow bank tricks to collect a bullet and I fired a round into what I knew was a long bank. I heard a clank. Now I know where the trash can blew to.

[44man]

But Bass, who else gets as much accuracy as I do from a revolver???
It might have taken me many, many years but as soon as I read a boolit, I can fix it fast.
Well, it is hard to make that claim, there are others like Cbrick that make a revolver sit up and talk and I am sure many others can too. So good in fact that I bet a lot of us marvel at the group pictures in gun magazines and say "Wow, did he really do that at 25 yards? What did he do, drop the gun?"
SNOW--------------Hey don't even talk about it. I have been behind a snow blower way too long plus I have shoveled snow for at least 14 hours over three days, even shoveled off most of my roof. I am way ahead of all the youngsters, I am 72 and did not get a sore back.
I just wish I could have gotten down to my range to shoot all kinds of boolits into the snow. I would need a tow truck to get my old butt back up the hill!

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Bass/44man, good discussion, good points of conversation, I am enjoying this thread.

[runfiverun]

you seen exactly where i was going with the lube thing,sorta.
i think a lube does need to be harder [not plastic colored stuff thats part of a lube groove either]
it also needs to be flexible to do it's job as a sealant [one part of the problems solved for me]
it also has to make the jump across the gap in the groove to do so,yet be soft enough to fly away [just like 44 showed in the picture]
it also has [for me] to leave a slight film behind. but i don't think it needs to lube the revolver and cases,it needs to do it's job in the bbl.
if it leaves a "slimy" film it is gonna lead to skidding [i.m.o.]
i want engagement of lead and rifling as much as you do and i have heard bass say "it's in the launch" enough times to explore it.
push don't shove,comes to mind.
a gas check works by grabbing the rifling by being harder than the lead and holding it's position stopping the lead from shoving forward.
i think a lot of the pictures are really showing not skidding but displacement of the lead while it is engaging the rifling and it is being rotated while being shoved forward at the same time the only way it would not do it is if the case were to rotate in the cylinder and i doubt that is gonna happen while it is still gripping the cylinder walls.
pressure balance.
my latest load in my 357 maximum is using aa-2230,and i have to yet gather a boolit back but it is showing some of the best accuracy i have gotten from a revolver yet at 50 and 100 yds.
but i am not a handgun shooter [not a good one anyways] past 50 yds.
i may be doing fine here even with the 250 gr boolit still tryin to leave the case and engaging the throat somewhat as the case is still fully open while the pressure is still on the rise.
timing of the powder [pressure]and where the boolit is at the time could come into play with how an alloy re-acts to the bbl.

[Bass Ackward]

But Bass, who else gets as much accuracy as I do from a revolver???

I think that you might be surprised. I remember Siefried doing an article back in the 80s (?) (I kept that article somewhere) where he shot 1" at 100 yards when he was pushing his dad's molds. (LBT)

When I was a kid, I had a private range down over the hill from me that was owned by a fella named Wade VanKirk. Where talent came from across the nation to shoot Bullseye and Sillouette there. The fella that took a liken to me and taught me was named Kenny Johnson who lived next to my grandmother for awhile. I didn't know what it meant at the time, but many of the guys there were Camp Perry vets and state and national champs. I think Kenny was at one time too but he didn't like to talk competition much. I know his wife was PA state champ small bore. I have seen him do at 50 what you do. Off hand, with opens, and upside down using lead. Many times. Soft lead by the way. I know because I used to get lectures about NOT NICKING the bases.

They had some of the crappiest guns with bare steel and electrical tape all over the grips. And I loaded 45s till I didn't want to see another darn gun. They used to hire (turns out con, I only got .05 a bird) me (I was only 8 or 9) into shooting blackbirds off the rams with what became a Mod 18 Smith. They told me it was to keep the fertilizer off the steel. Turns out what him and Wade were doing was betting money with the attendees on my shooting without me knowing. Wade used to say, "Lets walk the crick" and that was snap shooting class. I LIKED THAT!!! Brings back a lot of memories writing this.

So I do have a different perspective on handgun shooting because of that than most maybe.

Don't forget to try what I told ya for the 45-70.

[243winxb]

For the average gun/shooter .430" cast bullets work well. For a larger diameter add antimony/linotype. Make sure the iron mould is fully up to temperature. You will need air cooled boolits to contain 6% antimony & 2% tin.