cast bullets question

[songdog33]

Howdy all: I just cast some bullets from my Lyman 429421 mould last night. I cast them out of W/W just to get an idea of the diameter the bullets will be. They measured .4295 after they had cooled in the garage for about an hour. My Blackhawk measures .432 cyl. throats, .431 forward of the forcing cone and .4295 at the muzzle. I was hoping that they would cast large enough to size to .432 as I wanted them to be a bit closer to the size of the throat. Am I looking at this all wrong and sizing them to .429 be good? Will using a different alloy cast them larger? Do they swell? I have never sized bullets to fit my gun, I always just sized them like you would buy cast bullets, .452 .429 or whatever the standard was for the caliber.

[Bass Ackward]

So? Leave them unsized.

What that means is that you will have to hit them with enough pressure to get them to expand and seal. And they will.

You will need something between 12k for ultra fast powders or 20k with ultra slow to get that to happen.

[fredj338]

Yes, casting them w/ more tin will get them a bit larger. Shooting them undersized is likely to give you some accuracy & leading issues. Some good reading here. http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

[44man]

Yep, they will expand and seal if you thump them but that is OK for just snapping caps. If you want accuracy--mmmmmmm!
Punching them hard enough will have you skidding the rifling too and you are almost sure to get leading.
Two things, don't thump them as hard and have gas channels around the smaller boolit or thump them so they skid and deform so you create your own gas channels.
Personally I would lap the drive bands to cast a .431" or .4315" boolit, water drop them, lube and size .432" to remove excess lube and let them age to harden and expand to .432".
The semi wad cutter is not the best to start with for accuracy because the little shoulder is all that guides the boolit in the forcing cone. Slam the base to fill the dimensions of the gun---well, what about the rest of the boolit? Has anyone proven that the whole boolit cast of WW metal expands for it's full length so the entire boolit is .432" to match the throats or does just the base flare leaving no steerage at the front?
Actually, a very hard .431" boolit will do just fine in the gun as long as the chambers are in good alignment with the bore.
Bass and I agree on many things but to make a boolit expand to obturate in the gun is not one of them.

[Shiloh]

Shooting them undersized is likely to give you some accuracy & leading issues. Some good reading here. http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

+1
You will more than likely be disappointed with the accuracy. Undersize boolits rattling down the bore are quite liable to have leading issues. Have you tries adding some linotype??

Shiloh

[lwknight]

Tin helps cast larger but, only in that it get the full mold fill. You can get the antimony level up to 6% and gain more than 0.001" dia because antimony crystals actually expand as they solidify. The boolit will be a bit harder to drop out of the mold but thats the price.

[runfiverun]

i'd try some..
i can only chamber 428 max in my 44-40 the bbl is 430.
i bump them up with a good load of 2400 and have not had any leading whatsoever.
i do mix ww's and stick-ons for a softer alloy though.
something is sealing and i bet it's the drive band pushing into the lube groove,cause i get a nice star at the muzzle and can keep them easily under 3" at 100 yds with open sights.
so the base is obdurating and possibly the rounded nose is settin back too, whatever it's doing it's working.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

+1 for mix your alloy and make them softer, so you don't have fire them with Max charges to get the boolit to expand into the groves and seal the bore, you can try several of the options as offered above and you could lap the mold to get the correct boolit size for your bore...Good Luck...you got a lot of useful info, work with it and see what you get...S. L.

[songdog33]

THanks for the help. I have a couple of more questions. What is beagling, and how is it done? How would i go about lapping the mould? I could not find this when I did a search. If it is something that I should have someone with experience do, Is there somepeople on this site that could do this for me? I would like to have a bullet that is sized at .432.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Songdog33, look up the thread on Leementing, good info there on how to lap a mold, this works on most molds I have used this method on, it takes longer on steel than aluminum, but you have to do your own work and check often.

[Bass Ackward]

If you are convinced that you want to move to a larger diameter, then this is the way to get it done. There are a few guys who do this, of which this fella is one. Read down the page towards the bottom.

http://www.hollowpointmold.com/


Another option is to simply offer to swap molds with a fella that wants a smaller diameter. Just realize that "universal" sizing theory is probably the most over rated fascet of cast for "handgun" accuracy. But many falsely believe that a tube needs to be 100% lead free to be accurate at handgun velocities and this is not always true either.

I size anywhere from .001 below bore diameter to .003 over the throat depending on what Professor Gun says works for him with a certain design.

[songdog33]

Thanks: I guess before I get too carried away with tinkering with the mold, I should work with it a bit. I was always under the impression that you should be at least .002 over size. Tom

[Larry Gibson]

Add 2% tin

Cast hotter

Open spout so alloy gets into cavity faster

Larry Gibson

PS; I agree with Lloyd, I've shot thousands of .429 sized .44s in various revolvers with throats as large as .432. With the right loads (mostly magnum loads) or right alloy for lighter loads the .429 sized bullets shot every bit as good as bullets sized to throat diameter. I know that is blasphemey but that is my experience shootng the .44 Magnum with cast bullets ever since '68. I've run tests over numerus types of rests over the years and have found little difference. The real difference I've found is that bullets that fit will lead less under certain sitiuations. Maybe I'm just not a good enough shot to tell the difference but I some how doubt that based on groups sizes.

[44man]

Add 2% tin

Cast hotter

Open spout so alloy gets into cavity faster

Larry Gibson

PS; I agree with Lloyd, I've shot thousands of .429 sized .44s in various revolvers with throats as large as .432. With the right loads (mostly magnum loads) or right alloy for lighter loads the .429 sized bullets shot every bit as good as bullets sized to throat diameter. I know that is blasphemey but that is my experience shootng the .44 Magnum with cast bullets ever since '68. I've run tests over numerus types of rests over the years and have found little difference. The real difference I've found is that bullets that fit will lead less under certain sitiuations. Maybe I'm just not a good enough shot to tell the difference but I some how doubt that based on groups sizes.

I tend to agree with you and Lloyd, I think this boolit fit thing is way over blown. Having shot a ton of .429" boolits from the S&W and .430" from my Rugers ( .4324" throats, .430" bore ) I still feel bore fit is most important along with chamber alignment and a boolit that gives good steerage in the forcing cone.
As you know I shoot pretty hard boolits from 22 to 28 BHN yet I see no big difference in accuracy with .432" boolits
I still recommend throat size because it is a good place to start and we don't know what the gun is like.
Shooting a boolit under bore size is a problem so the solution is always to make them soft, well, bump them up to fit the throat and something has to give in the transition to the rifling.
Now say I NEED a softer boolit for hunting! This is where boolit fit to the gun is much more important so that I get NO boolit expansion in the gun. I don't want any and will never believe in it after too many years fooling with these naked boolits. The softer boolit must use a gas check and a slow powder to give me the accuracy I want by taking the rifling. I want the softer boolit contained and restricted in the gun.
As a side note, I have been trying to shoot 200 yard groups with one revolver and a PB boolit and can't get under 4". I found a few boolits in the berm and discovered I was skidding past the base band so I cleaned the barrel. I got some lead out of it and this gun never leads. I checked the box of boolits and found they are just water dropped WW's running 20 BHN. They are not hard enough for a PB. The land marks on the front band are double the width of the lands. Now what would you do? would you make the boolit softer?
I also feel I might get rifling wear with this skid so I need to make the boolits very hard to prevent wear. Is this the reason Bass keeps talking about gun wear? Is he just skidding the steel away with soft boolits?
I don't know where the love affair for soft boolits comes from!

[JIMinPHX]

Were it me, I would look around for another mold that dropped .432" boolits, but you can fool around with that thing if you want to. I think that you are going to need to do a lot of work to get an undersized plain base to shoot well. I think that you will lead the living daylights out of the area just forward of the forcing cone in most cases with that combination.

You might try a hollow base. That allows the boolit to bump up at the base more easily when fired.

[9.3X62AL]

There's a pretty good cross-section of opinion on the "bumping up" issue in revolvers in this thread; this is Cast Boolits at its best, a wide range of opinions offering experience-based information, with the sum being "there is more than one way to skin a cat".

My own view is that boolit fit in the throats is critical to consistent performance and accurate shooting as a general rule. But I also never say "never" and never say "always" in this hobby field. The opinions of many whose experiences differ from my own and whose judgements I trust reside here, and once in a while my own dogma gets run over by a gun's karma. At those times, it's nice having second opinions and differing experiences to fall back upon.

[Bass Ackward]

They are not hard enough for a PB. The land marks on the front band are double the width of the lands. Now what would you do? would you make the boolit softer?
I also feel I might get rifling wear with this skid so I need to make the boolits very hard to prevent wear. Is this the reason Bass keeps talking about gun wear? Is he just skidding the steel away with soft boolits?
I don't know where the love affair for soft boolits comes from!

I think that you misunderstand from the point that you don't put our conversations into context.

I have always advocated hardness to match (or withstand) pressure. But not everyone shoots 35K all the time. The bullet also has to match gun or barrel wear. OR ... the way that you are shooting it. (big point!) If you slip or strip, then you need a stronger design or a harder bullet regardless of how much pressure or velocity that you are running.

In fact, if you shoot a large bullet in the throat, you "can" increase throat friction under obturation that can help hold the slug from turning over at the same time the front is encountering the rifling. IF that is the case, then:

Shooting bore size "can" .... minimize stripping.
Shooting GCs "can" .... minimize stripping.
Or shooting harder bullets "can" minimize stripping.

Generally, the faster I go, the smaller I size. Why aid the stripping effect?

Remember, I am not pushing the velocities that you do. (I actually own rifles ) So I don't need the hardness for either reason. If I did, I would use it.

Wear? Please read Songdog's measurements. Pay particular attention to the bore measurements. I have included these for your convenience

<<My Blackhawk measures .432 cyl. throats, .431 forward of the forcing cone and .4295 at the muzzle.>>

Ruger making tapered bores these days?

[Bass Ackward]

There's a pretty good cross-section of opinion on the "bumping up" issue in revolvers in this thread.

Everyone always refers to obturation. But, as the base tries to pass the nose of the bullet under acceleration, you can also get slumping that will affect the bullet up it's length to the point that the hardness is capable of supporting the weight above it.

So, two guys shooting equal guns and loads, one man shooting light for caliber bullets and another shooting heavy for caliber slugs, the heavy for caliber guy has more chance for slumping and must maintain a harder slug at the same pressure levels. A guy shooting an olgival has more up front weight than a semiwadcutter guy. Etc.

Bottom line is to do what you have to do. But because YOU have to do it, don't assume everyone must fight the same battle.

[44man]

I think that you misunderstand from the point that you don't put our conversations into context.

I have always advocated hardness to match (or withstand) pressure. But not everyone shoots 35K all the time. The bullet also has to match gun or barrel wear. OR ... the way that you are shooting it. (big point!) If you slip or strip, then you need a stronger design or a harder bullet regardless of how much pressure or velocity that you are running.

In fact, if you shoot a large bullet in the throat, you "can" increase throat friction under obturation that can help hold the slug from turning over at the same time the front is encountering the rifling. IF that is the case, then:

Shooting bore size "can" .... minimize stripping.
Shooting GCs "can" .... minimize stripping.
Or shooting harder bullets "can" minimize stripping.

Generally, the faster I go, the smaller I size. Why aid the stripping effect?

Remember, I am not pushing the velocities that you do. (I actually own rifles ) So I don't need the hardness for either reason. If I did, I would use it.

Wear? Please read Songdog's measurements. Pay particular attention to the bore measurements. I have included these for your convenience

<<My Blackhawk measures .432 cyl. throats, .431 forward of the forcing cone and .4295 at the muzzle.>>

Ruger making tapered bores these days?

There is so much of what you say I agree with 100%, just a few tidbits that I don't. One of which is that you keep saying I shoot nothing but heavy boolits and heavy loads so I NEED hard lead but ever since my early IHMSA days I have worked with lead alloy and made hundreds of tests.
Now I have shown this one many times, shot with my .44 and a 245 gr Keith, 231 and Unique. My plinking loads. I started with water dropped WW metal and worked up in hardness to 28-30 BHN. At each step up in hardness accuracy improved.
How do you explain the difference between 22 and 28-30 BHN?
I can, it is NOT pressure, it is WHEN the pressure hits the boolit.
Don't you know my slow powder loads are EASIER on a boolit then those low pressure loads you tell me I never shoot!

[runfiverun]

i'm gonna throw another wrench in here.
how do you know that IF you had used a firmer lube the softer boolits may or not have been affected quite so much as going to a harder alloy.
is it still skidding [probably on the nose]or is the firmer lube giving the base a bit more support?
i'm also gonna throw something else in here about alloy content not bhn.
a balanced alloy will also flex and usually try to retain it's original shape better than a lopsided or treated alloy will.
for instance i can push my 4%tin 6% antimony alloy to a bit higher velocities than i can my
water dropped 1% tin and ww alloy.
they test dang close in bhn [within 2 points] the w dropped are the harder.
what gives here??
i totally agree with the 'when a peak pressure is hit' effects how a boolit is pushed down a bbl and can affect leading.
it's pretty easy to say what we do when we face the situation presented here,but he has to try what's presented for himself and decide which avenue to persue.
i wouldn't be happy with a boolit too small for my throats but it ain't the end of the world.
try a couple of solutions one should work,but don't count on it working in the next gun you buy.