How do PP bullets achieve accuracy?

[Lead pot]

Seth Hawkins

What Charlie laid out is a good start.
You said that you are getting equipment gathered up to swage your bullets, this is fine I do this and I have two presses and a bunch of dies for several calibers.
When you spend $500. for a set of dies and punches you want to make sure on what your final goal will be for bullet design and diameter or you will be waiting another year for a new set of dies being made and spend several hundred dollars again for a set of dies for that bullet that will fit better.
My self I cast more then I swage anymore because of the quality dies now made by custom mould makers and a lot less money.
I dont agree with Charlie on the bullet diameter of .446" for the Shiloh with no free bore in the throat. You will not be able to seat the cartridge with a bullet patched over bore by .002 or even .001 with certain ogives with out using a tool to cam that cartridge in unless you have a very strong thumb. And I sure as hell would not run a patched bullet through a sizing die. You cant compress lead, you can make it flow but it will displace the lead places you dont want it. That might work if you dont shoot farther than 100 yards, heck you can even use a hammer to beat the bullet down and still hit at 50 or 100 yards.

Find the paper you want to use. Decide what type of bullet ogive radius you want to shoot.
The alloy will not be to hard if you are using a swage press like the Walnut Hill or one of Dave Corbin's presses so most likely 1/20 alloy will be the hardest, maybe 1/18, so that will limit you with the type of ogive that will stand with the alloy hardness.
The Paper Mill has a good paper that runs .002-.0022 thick that is 25% cotton, I use a lot of it. You would want to stay away from papers that is shiny because it will have a high clay content.
Southworth paper is very good if you can find it, they had paper that ran from .0014 and up 100% cotton rag I have several boxes but you wont find it in the shopping malls like Office supply or Staple's you have to look in old Office Supply Stores down town they might have some in basements.
I personally would not have my die more than .4445, but you will have to decide that your self with what your intent will be.
Remember the S3 or S4 bullet noses will have to be swaged harder and you also will need a little larger diameter also on the bullet shank for a tighter fit so you will get good engraving. At least .002 over bore patched.
Think this over before investing in dies, you might want to go with a mould with the diameter you think you might want to use. You can always use the mould for a core mould so nothing is lost.

Good luck.

Kurt

[rhead]

Learn to do it the historically proven way first before you start branching into experimenting with different papers and sizes. Montana Charlie is quite knowledgeable on black powder paper patching.

As to understanding the physics of the operation, the answers to 99% of your questions will be apparent while you are wrapping the first bullet. You seem to be trying to "visualize" a process that you can do and look at.

[pdawg_shooter]

For smokeless I always size .001/.0015 over BORE diameter. I wrap with 2 wraps of 16# printer paper. This is the continuous feed paper with the holes down the sides. After drying I lube and run through a push through die .001/.003 larger than Groove diameter. I have had luck sizing as large as will fit the throat of the rifle. The paper will compress to fit the rifling no problem. Besides protecting the rifling from the lead the patch also supports the bullet against distortion from the acceleration in the barrel. I have taken a 311284 just over 3000fps in a 300RUM with MOA accuracy this way.

[Don McDowell]

Sharps rifle, .45-70, strictly BP, shooting at paper & steel. I've owned the gun for a number of years, but haven't shot it yet. I've got everything I need to load for it, except the bullet. The swaging press gets me closer. I just need to order dies for the swaging press. This will allow me to adjust the weight. But I need to determine the diameter.

If you want to figure out how to make that combination work the best , you'll do well to find everything you can find that Leadpot and Kenny Wasserburger have put out on various boards. Then ask them questions.These two fine men are a couple of the finest paper patch riflemen in the country right now.

[Seth Hawkins]

My rifle is a C. Sharps 1875, not a Shiloh. Not sure if that makes any difference...

[Seth Hawkins]

I'm reading everything I can get my hands on, but figure I gotta start doing it sooner or later to learn from my mistakes & gain experience. I'm just trying to find a good starting point, and figured having a good understanding of how it works is about as good a starting point as I could get. I just didn't think that paper would be that resilient.

Thanks for the info, guys.

[Don McDowell]

No it won't make that much difference.
You'll want to try various nose styles in .441 and .444 diameter, different papers and final patched diameter from .448 to .452 to find what your rifle likes the best.That doesn't take into account wads and such under the bullet.
In the meantime you may want to be sure and have a good supply of grease groove bullets on hand to go to the match with. Match winning paper patch loads takes some time and lots of testing.

[Don McDowell]

One other thing in the 45-70 you'll want to keep the bullet length under 1.4 inches. Anything over that is getting to long to stabilize at 45-70 velocity.

[6.5 mike]

oso, the .002 thing was an example, I should have stated that better. I have found, with my rifles, .0015 to .002 over groove works very well for me, so far.
Being frugal ( read cheap) I use lee moulds knowing most drop small, so I wrap to size from there. I am working on a lee sizer so I can size first, then wrap just because I haven't tried that yet. All of this is with smokeless.
Seth, if you check the archives, bottom of opening page, you'll see patching with just about any type of paper, tin foil, teflon tape, ect. Some works, some doesn't.
I use tracing paper (wally world), lined notebook paper ($ store), & printer paper ( office at work). All used to reach a given diameter, or over it & size back to what I need. Hope this helps.
If you plan to use bp, MC can give you a world of good info. He is one of the ones I refered to in my first answer. I haven't tried it in my sharps yet, but have read all I can about it.

[303Guy]

I have taken a 311284 just over 3000fps in a 300RUM with MOA accuracy this way.

Holy .... umm .... moly! (Another way of saying "That's astounding!")

How heavy is that boolit?

Besides protecting the rifling from the lead the patch also supports the bullet against distortion from the acceleration in the barrel.

This has become my thinking too.

[1874Sharps]

Seth,

I think you will find the pursuit of paper patched boolits fascinating and rewarding. The technology was described in patents going all the way back to 1870 when some shooter had the bright idea to try a wrap or two of paper around a bollit (the light bulb did not, however, go on over his head, as the light bulb had yet to be invented). This is still a good technology today, as many shooters here can attest, in both BP and smokeless. Some of the great BPCR target shooters will use patched boolits that are bore size and can be inserted deep into the bore past the leade, almost like the breech seating method. The boolit is held in the case by the smallest amount. Others, like myself, find for mid range shooting and hunting, a boolit that is either slightly over bore diameter (but well under groove diameter) so that it is seated a bit deeper in the case works well. Or, a tapered boolit that patches to under bore diameter at the nose and over bore diameter at the base. There are more ways than one to skin the cat.

[RMulhern]

So... if the lead expands to engage the rifling (that is what "obturation" is, right?), what's the point of paper patching? I thought the purpose, or at least part of the purpose, of the paper "jacket" is to prevent leading the barrel.

Seth

"So... if the lead expands to engage the rifling (that is what "obturation" is, right?)"

No!! Obturation means to....SEAL!! The bullet UPSETS...thereby causing obturation which is necessary to prevent 'gas cutting' of the bullet!!

[EDK]

LOADING & SHOOTING PAPER PATCHED BULLETS, A BEGINNERS GUIDE by Randolph Wright...available from Shiloh Sharps, Buffalo Arms, etc. My favorite; the author is a professional illustrator.

THE PAPER JACKET by Paul Matthers...Wolfe Publishing or ? Reprinted classic.

Orville Loomer's booklet...from Shiloh Sharps. Excellent...he posts on shiloh rifle.com/forums. Nice guy and eager to share his knowledge.

Lots of info at shilo web site or here.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Lead Pot,

I use a .446 bullet with Seth Cole 8# paper in a standard Shiloh Chamber, have no issues with it at all.

1.336 inch Group in the 5@200 Shots in the upper 90's at long range also.

Kenny W

[Lead pot]

Yes Kenny I know you done well with that .446 bullet. How thick is that Seth Cole #8 paper you used?
I cant use a .446 diameter in my .45/90 with out giving up a lot of case in the Shiloh but the other .45/90 I have with the 5 degree tapered throat it does quite well.

Kurt

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Kurt,

paper is about .0015 wet patched its perfect in all my 45 cal Shilohs. Except Dora with it's Heavy barrel is a tad too tight my .444 diam bullet is the one I go to for it.

Kenny W
The Lunger