Home made dies

[martin]

jixxerbill,

If you wouldn't mind, please expand a little more on your laps (no pun intended

Are the laps made out of brass?
Do the laps have a screw at the end for adjustment?
How many slots do they have? (drawing or picture available?)
When you are using them, how do you load them up with cutting compound?
Are you doing through holes?
Have you used one in a point forming die yet?
How tight do you make them in the hole when you are using one?
Does the lap wear much?
What options does American Lap company offer?
How quickly did you get your laps?
After using a commericial lap, could you have made your own?

Thank You,
Martin

[Bull45cal]

KTN,

I am amazed by what you have done. I have been looking for (even toying with designing) swaging dies for my old Rock Chunker. I'm completely blown away, and can't wait to see your final result. I'm working on a cartridge for centerfire puesdo long range practice. I want to use either a .22 Hornet, or maybe a shortened .223 to shoot out to 300 yards. Basically, I'm working up a centerfire cartridge that will produce .22LR velocities, with heavy .22 cal bullets. My plan is to have a switch barrel for my F-Class TR rifle that I can use for practice. I believe you may hold the key to my plan. I’m new to the forum, and hope I can pick your brain a little, if you would be so gracious.

For this idea of mine to work, I would need to be able to create 70gr to 80gr lead .224 bullets for low cost. I have been looking into casting, and that is why I joined this forum. Miraculously, my first search brings up your project. I don’t have any experience with casting, but I can operate a reloading press pretty well. How easy would it be to turn a lead wire unto a pointed .224 75gr (non-jacketed) lead bullet? How many operations? Is this a realistic alternative to casting these bullets? I’m very excited about what you’re doing here, and hope my questions are not a bother. Thank you and everyone else, in advance, for sharing your vast knowledge.

[scrapcan]

Reamer for straight sided holes.

I was reading a british book on hobby lathes some time ago and there is a good discussion on using a reamer that has a diagonal flat ground across the drill stock. I will need to look up the the author and the reference, but I think it is the Amatuers Lathe by L.H. Sparey.

[scrapcan]

Drill bits,

I have been trying to learn to proerly grind drill bits. I bought a hand full of jobber bits to learn on. I just get out the gage and have a go. Keep things cool and checkall the geometry frequently. I am getting better, but not near enough quickly enough. So I use new bits also, I am using HSS high quality bits. I too think if one wants to make more than one hole you probably need good bits.

I have been trying to talk myself into an electric drill sharpener, but I also think a manual shapener jig would be a good start. This is just stuff I need to learn and not really related to the thread topic

[martin]

Bull45cal,

I don't mean to butt in here but I see a couple of thing you should be aware of in your proposal (these are my opinion only so take them for what they are worth).

First off, you suggest using pure lead bullets without a jacket. This may lead to some leading problems in the barrel along the way since the lead used for cores is very soft. I would also think that it would be difficult to seat a pure lead bullet into a 22 hornet or 223 case without deforming them. You may want to go with a harder lead (linotype, monotype) but the swaging pressures would increase a lot and most reloading presses would not take that well.

Second, you suggest 22LR velocities and heavy bullets (70 to 80 grains). I see a potential problem here with extream bullet drop at 300 yards. My experience is that this could be in the magnatude of 10 feet or more depending on the balistic coeficient and/or velocity drop down range.

Third, you suggest 22 Hornet or 223 as your case of choice. If I remember correctly, both of these have rifle twist rates of around 1 in 12. A 22 LR is typically 1 in 16. Now with all that being said, the longer bullets (70 or 80 grains) will require faster twist rates but I don't know how this would all work out. I would think that a bunch of research/trial and error testing would be in order to determine what would be best. My inclination would be that what works for copper jacketed bullets may not be optimum for lead bullets. You may want to contact the CBA (Cast Bullet Association) and ask them.

It's not that you cannot make a set of dies for .224 70 to 80 grain bullets and turn them out. This can be done.

The question is, are you going to be happy with the results?

Before moving forward on somthing like this, I would recommend you seek the opinion of others with a lot more working knowledge and experience than I have and get a better feel that the chances of this succeeding. Who knows, you could be on to somthing here.

Martin

[Doug_F]

I have been trying to learn to proerly grind drill bits...I just get out the gage and have a go.

I bought a set of cheap jeweler's loupes from Harbor Fright and they REALLY help to see how accurately you've ground the drill bit when you have the gage against it. I think a set of 5 loupes cost me $3.95 or something like that. They are also great for seeing when you are digging metal splinters out of your fingers.

[Bull45cal]

Martin,

Thank you for your opinions & suggestions. I didn’t want to get into all the specifics of my research when asking the prior question. Let me share my thoughts with you and see what you think.

First, I’m not settled on exactly what alloy I would use. I like the idea of pure lead, seeing as it does expand so very well at low velocity. While the main purpose of this project is produce low cost, yet highly accurate practice ammo, I would also like to use it in intermidate (150-350 yards) range varmint hunting. Now, let me layout my thoughts.


1) Low Cost Ammo
As a long range shooter who is not as finically capable as most competitors, I shoot a lot of 22 LR. In designing a 22LR rig to practice with I began to run the cost figures. If I’m going to practice with 22LR, I’m going to have to buy match ammo. 22 LR ammo cost $8.00 to $20.00 per 50rd box. I figure that I can load 22 centerfire ammo (within my parameters) for around $7.00-$8.00 a box. In my experience, rimfire ammo is very finicky. I have not had the success from lot to lot that I would like to see if I’m going to use it for long range practice. Being able to produce accurate, concentric bullets for low cost, and at a relatively quick rate, with low time involvement (compared to casting), fits right into my plans.

2) Switch Barrel Concept
With this thought in mind, I began to look at how to make this idea work. I will have a custom barrel made that will fit my rifle, so I can practice with the same stock, scope, eye relief, cheek weld, bipod..etc. This negates the need for a whole new rig, while dramatic reducing the cost. I will be running a 1 in 8 or 1 in 9 twist barrel, depending on the bullet shape/length. This may lead to low round count leading, but at the velocities I will be using, I don’t think it will be much of a problem. I will not be pushing the pressures or velocity very high, so soft lead should be feasible.

[martin]

Bull45cal,

I say "go for it" and please keep the group informed as your project progresses. If there is anything I or the group can do to assist you when you make your swaging dies, let us know.

My way of looking at this is that you would probably need a squirt die to get the exact weight and a pointing die to finish the bullet. Due to the softness of the lead, you may want to have a slightly different configuration than what is used with jacketed bullets. In a jacketed bullet pointing die the extractor pin is typically 1/16 and uses the copper contact surface of the meplate for extraction. With soft lead this would not work well as the extration pin would be driven into the soft lead. This is one of the problems experienced when a jacketed bullet is "stuck" in the die. I would think that you would want an internal punch with the ogive machined into it to provide more bearing surface for extraction. Just thinking out loud.


martin

[jixxerbill]

jixxerbill,

If you wouldn't mind, please expand a little more on your laps (no pun intended

Are the laps made out of brass?
Do the laps have a screw at the end for adjustment?
How many slots do they have? (drawing or picture available?)
When you are using them, how do you load them up with cutting compound?
Are you doing through holes?
Have you used one in a point forming die yet?
How tight do you make them in the hole when you are using one?
Does the lap wear much?
What options does American Lap company offer?
How quickly did you get your laps?
After using a commericial lap, could you have made your own?

Thank You,
Martin

hey martin, most of your questions can b answered here...http://www.americanlap.com/....i load them up with a small paint brush,yes im doing through holes, have not attempted a point forming die yet, i apply the cutting compound then tap the lap up the arbor till snug, they dont appear to wear much at all, laps were delivered in 5 days (i had one made that was a non-standard size so took a little longer to get them), no i could not have made my own they are made out of ductile iron or something !!! if u go to the website there is a wealth of info on there... excellent work on your dies by the way.. first class for sure !!! i stopped by my local machine shop today and asked about the rough cut die idea, they didnt seem interested !!! but i would be glad to trade/make someone a core swage die and a core seat die for a point form die !!! lol point form die still a little out of my league..bill

[a.squibload]

He may have done like I did and just used a 60* centering drill to make the angle. It saves time.

Hold ALT button and type 167, then let go. Looks like this: º

60º

Unless you have a Mac, that is.

I use alt 155 sometimes too: ¢

35¢

What can I say, I'm easily entertained...

[Doug_F]

Jixxerbill,

Can you give us a rough idea of what a standard lap and arbor costs? It looks like a cool setup.

[jixxerbill]

Jixxerbill,

Can you give us a rough idea of what a standard lap and arbor costs? It looks like a cool setup.

laps are $20.00 each for most fractional to 64ths, if u need something thats not its a $25.00 set-up fee and the price of the closest lap to the size u need made, its a one time fee so if u going to need to make a bunch of parts then buy as many laps as u might need (just have to pay price of laps after first one , but u have to get them at time of order , if u call back later and need another one u pay set-up fee again!!) the arbors i got were small and were $60.00 each. they never wear out and can be used with diffrent laps. i got 600 grit aluminum oxide compound, a pound of it i think it was. it cuts slower but saves buying 2 diffrent grits..

[Doug_F]

That's not bad at all. Thanks for the info.

[martin]

KTN,

It's been a while since we last heard from you. How are your dies coming along? Have you had success with lapping out your point forming die?

My latest efforts are in the area of machining another set of dies for 30 cal. My intent is 185 grain open tipped boat tails which require a boat tail forming die and punches.

Martin

[KTN]

Martin,

first, congratulations on your succes with your dies.
Now, for my dies , jacket maker, core swage and core seat, no problem, but that point forming die .
After lapping it for hours, it now measures 0.2245" and there are still some scratches in it. Looks like it will end up as .243" die, when I get that reamer made.
Next to grind few thousands of my .224" reamer and try again.
Later on I will start building swaging press, inspired by Aneat's posts and pictures.
Boat tail swaging dies are also on my to do list.

Anyone swaging bullets from .22 WMR cases ? What calibers can be swaged from it other than .243". Can it go up to 6.5mm = .264"?



Kaj

[martin]

KTN,

I have been there and done that in regards to being oversized on point forming dies. It's easy to take material out but impossible to put it back in

Your plan for 243 dies are a good one. If you went through heat treatment, you will have to anneal the dies again so that you can use a new point forming reamer.

My experience, for what it is worth, is to start about .219 with your final reaming and lap the rest out. I found that my reamers leave chips which can get caught and score the side of the die a couple of thousands. It is important to have a mirror finish on the point forming die to get good extraction.

In terms of Boat tail dies, I did some for .223 bullets. I tried a couple of things and end up with the following:

I made a boat tail forming die for the jacket and in internal punch that fit into the jacket with the same angle. This allowed me to form the boat tail on the jacket.

I then made an internal punch with the same angle for the core forming. This allowed the core to have the same approxemate angle.

I then made an internal punch for the core seat die with the same angle to retain the boat tail. I found that this should not be heat treated due to the thin nature of the tip that forms the boat tail of the punch. If it is heat treated it will crack and break.

I then made an external punch for the point forming die and used my standard point forming die. This I found this also should not be heat treated.

Results were great but it was a lot of work. I am headed for the same thing right now in terms of 168 grain 30 cal projectiles for one of my Palma shooter buddies.

Martin

[KTN]

Martin,

I think that some chips scored insides of that die. It could be that I was rushing a bit with that reamer .
I'm thinking about rebated boat tails, like Lapua D46 and D166. Heat treating those little parts will bee interesting.

About your earlier post,

1. Cast pure lead slugs about .45 inches in diameter about 2 inches long. Home made casting die.
2. Extrude lead wire with a hand operated 13 ton hydrolic press at about .195 inches in diameter (pieces about 14 inches long). Home made extrusion dies and cylinder.
3. Cut the lead wire into cores (about 57 grains). Home made core cutter and dies
4. Squich (Squirt) cores (to about 55 grains). Home made squirt die and punches.
5. Clean up cores with MEK (methyl ethyl keytone)and take all lube off them.
6. Seat cores into jackets. Home made seating die and punches.
7. Point up and clean off lube for final bullet. Finished bullet is 6mm 70 grains. Home made pointing die and punches.

My shooting buddies think I am crazy as I spend more time making dies and making bullets than shooting them


Martin

You just can't beat home made , and you should see some of the faces around here, when I tell other shooters at range about my ammo and bullets. Around here very few of the shooters/hunters reload, and boolit casting or bullet swaging .
I'm just waiting for the day when they offer me to fit on that funnylooking, long sleeved shirt with belt buckles on back

Have you thought about putting your die on top of that shortened ram and base punches threaded on top of press? You could drop jackets and cores inside dies from top instead of balancing them on top of base punch and have them ejected on down stroke. It would also make dies little simpler to make, with fewer parts. Thats the reason I designed my dies the way they are (without any modifications to press) and why I'm starting to build my own swaging press, to make dies even simpler.


Kaj

[martin]

KTN,

I love my home made stuff as it provides me a sense of accomplishment. Sort of like one of my other interests, Fly Fishing. Where I grew up I loved to Fly Fish for trout in small rivers in northern Michigan. As got more into fly fishing, I decided to try fly tying. It took me some trial and error but I eventually became proficient enough to turn out professional result. For me, there is nothing like the excitement of catching a nice brook trout on a fly that I tied. Same thing holds true of making good performing projectiles from dies that I made.

In regards to your comment about placing the die on the ram and the external punch on the top of the press, I have considered that many times. I came to the conclusion that you end up at the same point so to speak. I cannot see where there is fewer parts in that the internal punch, external punch, and die are about the same. I can see that the extraction method is a bit simpler with a slot in the ram.

I have a couple of different presses that I use and my initial set up was the die pointing down. Guess it is my reading history that has lead me that direction in that the first set of dies that I ever used were made pointing down in a die holder.

As I move forward to 30 cal, I now have a Mighty Mite press from Corbin. This press has a slot in the ram and it is my intent to do the dies as you suggest. It will be several weeks before I get this going as I have several projects in motion that I need to finish up including trying out spent 22cal rimfires for 223 jackets.

Martin

[KTN]

Martin,

I also love to make my own stuff. Seeing my friends faces when I show these things to them is a bonus .

With fewer parts I meant that you don't need to make diebodies to hold parts together. One inside thread on ram and only need to cut short thread to swaging die, drop ejector pin inside ram and screw die on top. No springs needed, gravity takes care of that. Maybe not so many parts fewer, but at least some parts can be made bigger. A big + for me and my fingers .


Kaj

[KTN]

Bull45cal,

little late on my answer , but there is not much to add to Martin's answer.
Swaging .224" lead bullet will be a LOT easier than casting one . It will take two dies and two steps to swage boolit, core swage and point form.
With 70-80 grain bullets and .22 lr velocities you will need fast twist barrel to make it work and maybe more ( lost the word )........ not so sharp tipped bullet, to keep it from deforming during firing.
Like Martin said, go for it, and let us know how it works.


Kaj