Paper patch bullets

[Gunlaker]

Jim you are right, the time limits are quite doable as we shoot Eron's Money Match with the same rules except it's only one day and all at 1000 yards. I've shot my paper patched .45-90 a couple of times in that one. You certainly don't have much time to wait on a condition though. It's pretty much do your wiping routine, while trying to watch the flags, a quick look at the mirage and dial something up. Starting with good elevation values sure helps .

I find that I eat up a few extra seconds on each shot because I want to watch the bullet impact through the spotting scope. It sure helps if you come off the target to know approximately where you hit the dirt .

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Jim, one more thought. I think these self-spotting, tight time frame matches give a tiny bit of an advantage to a shooter using a scope. In my MVA scope I can read the mirage as long as it's not too subtle, and I can see the shot and score markers.

Chris.

[Distant Thunder]

Chris,

I have been shooting with a scope on my .40-65 this year and I see where it would offer some advantages like you say. I plan to use it for mid range paper, gongs, and silhouette. I don't think I'll be switching to a scope for long range any time soon since I am still seeing paper targets fairly well with the irons. It's those blasted silhouettes that I can't always see that prompted me to buy my scope and the difference is like night and day. I can see the silhouettes, all of them, I can see the mirage. I started with the scope on my C. Sharps .45-70 for silhouette and with that I couldn't see the hits and misses due to recoil. I don't know if the .40 will be any different even though the recoil is much less. I like the scope so well on my .40 I don't think I'll ever go back to iron sights on that rifle unless I have to for some match and have no choice.
My .40-65 is the rifle I am shooting a 2-diameter paper patched bullet in and they are working very well out to 600. Which is as far as that rifle will be called on to shoot.
I hope to shoot it in a gong match out to 500 this Sunday if the weather doesn't follow the forecast with rain all day. We are more than wet enough here in Wisconsin. I was walking through puddles on my way to the target today. Enough already, things need to dry up a little. At least on match day!

JK1

[martinibelgian]

Bore or groove diameter PP? I'm lucky in that in my rifle I have the ability to shoot both under the best circumstances - meaning that I have to neckturn my cases for groove diameter bullets, which requires dedicated cases per type of ammunition (well, for me at least). Each type has its pluses and minuses, so here some observations in no particular order:
- Groove diameter shoots cleaner than bore diameter, judging from the amount of fouling in the cases after shooting
- Bore diameter is less delicate as to ammo prepping: Patch a groove-dia. bullet a smidgen too long, and you'll have a sore thumb...
- Bore diameter - obviously - allows you to use more powder for a given case: can be plus or minus, depending or the case used
- Accuracy? little or no difference actually, assuming correct loading techniques for both - but in my rifles equal or better than with GG bullets
- Case prepping for groove dia. bullets is much more involved and time-cpnsuming, obviously - but that's in my specific case.

Bottom line, both work. For reference purposes, here the bullet/paper dimensions I'm using for both types:
Bore dia. PP : .443 naked, patched to .450-1
Groove dia. PP: .450 naked, patched up to .458-9

Just my experience, and I'm quite sure others will have different opinions; I can only say this works for me...

[Distant Thunder]

MB,

Nice summation.

I use paper patched bullets of both types too, just not in the same rifle. I use which ever is most appropriate to the chamber of the rifle I'm dealing with.

I also use a third type that shouldn't be overlooked, the 2-diameter paper patched bullet. This type is most can work very well in a rifle with freebore when you wish to seat the bullet swallow to have the best possible alignment and gain powder capacity hence velocity. This is what I do with my .40-65, which has approximately 3/8" of freebore in front of the chamber. Most of the shank is patched to fit the .409" freebore leaving only .075" in the case. The remaining forward portion of the shank is patched to fit the .400" bore diameter. Doing it that way as opposed to going with straight bore patching means the bullet doesn't have to bump up to fill the freebore, it already fills it, them squeeze down to the .408" groove diameter and the .400" land diameter.

I patch these 2-diameter bullets just as I would bore or groove diameter bullets and it works out just fine though the patch is a bit loose on the .150" long part that is patched to bore diameter. It certainly doesn't seem to hurt the accuracy any.

Right now I'm is the process of making a mold for a friend that will be a 2-diameter type of paper patched bullet. With is one only .100" of the base will be patched to groove diameter the rest of this 1.550" long .40 caliber bullet will be patched to bore diameter. This will be fired in his fast twist .40-72. The thought behind this that it will work in his grease groove chamber but give him a bullet that is essentially a bore diameter paper patched bullet. I'm not sure how well it will work out, but I'm thinking pretty and he has to do all the work with patching and load development so we'll learn something more about this design. I should finish up the mold in the next couple weeks (I'm unbelievably slow in my old age) so he'll have plenty of summer to make this work.

There definitely is more than one way to patch a bullet!

JK1

[54bore]

it appears that perhaps it will arrive when hell freezes over - or hopefully this december.

The waiting thing is a KILLER on me! I'm bad enough over a new bullet mold. I'm sure the wait will be worth it tho

[Lead pot]

Jim I have a Browning BPCR in .40-65 that had one of those bad throats slightly off center like a reamer was run through the second time cutting the extractor notch using a undersized piolet. I had a throating reamer made to clean the throat out and it did a very good job doing this but the chamber had to be deepened to the .40-72 and it shoots pretty good but suffers past midrange with the 16 ROT the Badger barrel it has. I been thinking running the throater in deeper for the .40-82 but I see pro's and con's about the .40-82's.
I think I seen you or Arnie post shooting the .40-82. What is your thought on the 82?

[BRUCE MOULDS]

jim,
I thought I was a pioneer of dual diameter pp bullets until I started posting about their virtues.
personal mails from all directions revealed that numbers of people had also been getting positive results from similar experiments.
many seem too scared to talk about it in public, possibly because it is considered out of the square.
in my case the bullet is set up for a no freebore chamber and the bullet 1/10" in the case.
the transition between the two diameters is the same as that in the chamber, in this case 7 degrees.
the idea was to finger seat the bullet in fired cases, and the rest of the bullet slides into the rifling like a conventional pp bullet.
the other idea was to avoid the massive bumpup that happens to the base of a patched to bore bullet in a greaser chamber upon firing.
it is in effect pre bumped up, thus avoiding one potential area for a problem.
patching the bullets is not a problem with a little practice.
in your case with a freebore chamber, bullet design will fill the case, fill the freebore, and fill the bore, all good things for accuracy.
my next chamber will be a tight pp chamber, but only because I have never tried one.
it will be less versatile, but sometimes you just have to know, and it can be enlarged.
my 13 twist 40/72 will keep a 1.55" long elliptical point on to 1000 yds, but they have a little wobble at about 600/700.
1.5" seems perfect for this twist.
next barrel will be 1:12 for 1.55" bullets.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I just got back from my match today and I'm starting to feel the effects of a long day, it started at 4:00 AM!

Arnie's rifle that he is planning to shoot this 1.550" 2-diameter paper patched bullet in is a .40-72, but I may have misstated it as a .40-82. If I did I'm sorry. Having started my BPCR journey with a .40-90 BN and struggled with that cartridge for 6 or 7 years I am not a big fan of what I would call "over bore capacity" black powder cartridges. Now before the guys with the big shiny cases get upset, I know they can be made to shoot very well and they are very impressive looking and looks are important, but the more modest capacity cases in any caliber are usually much easier to get good results with. For years I resisted the .45-70 because it was too common and not really impressive to look at. When I finally gave in and got my first .45-70. I quickly discovered why that should have been my first BPCR not my second. It was so easy to get that .45-70 to shoot well and it was so much less fussy about bullets and such consistent shooter that I now have 3 .45-70 and all have been very user friendly. I learned so much with that first .45-70 that working with the bigger cases was a lot easier and there enjoyable.

So I kind of feel the same way about the other calibers too, including the.40s, bigger is not always better. Now I know the lure of the big cases is strong, I haven't resisted it completely either. It's just that those small to medium cases will reward you in the end with very good and consistent performance. That's why I'm a big fan of the .40-65, it works!

Arnie's .40-72 looks pretty interesting, but like the .40-82 I have no personal experience with it. With a paper patched bullet he can get 85 grains of powder in that case. That's probably a bit more than is needed in a .40 IMHO, but Arnie says it shoots pretty well with a bore diameter paper patched bullet he has. Now he just wants to see if a two-diameter bullet would work as well or better in the grease groove chamber of his rifle. It would eliminate the need to neck size all together and perhaps save on the brass some. This whole idea came about because of the very good results 4 of us have been having with the two-diameter PPBs in our freebored chambers.

I was shooting my .40-65 today and it shot very, very well. I hit 36 out of 40, missing two gongs at 500, 1 due to spotter error (sorry Mike) and one due to smoke. I should have just held off, let the smoke clear and made the shot, but I didn't and I missed. Then I missed 2 of 5 offhand gongs at 200 yards and that a good day for me. This was all in a tailwind that at time had to hit 30 or 40 mph! Really! When I got up off my shooting mat it started blow down range! It rolled up from the foot end and if it hadn't been for my crossed sticks in front of it I'd have been chasing it down range!

Anyway, these two-diameter PPBs are working incredibly well. Most of my hits were within a few inches of center in some very tough conditions. This may prove to be the ultimate PPB setup, but don't tell Brent!

JK1

[Lead pot]

Hitting the road at 4AM the shoot must have been at Rapids. If Arnie would have sent me a note I might have rolled out of the bunk and made the trip. I guess it's best I shoot the 72 first before fooling with the chamber again. I just took a few shots after cleaning up the chamber to see what the case necks look like. I just don't shoot that Browning. I just load some rounds and take it with me to the range incase I get asked "can I shoot one" I mostly get asked by young gals so I take the girly gun with me loaded light.
I will head over to Alma next weekend. Carol just had surgery and I will pass the Q this year She is not ready for those long days. I might take the back way home over the bridge. A 1/2 day longer but enjoyable.
Kurt

[Distant Thunder]

Bruce,

I remember reading some posts you did a few years ago on two-diameter bullets. I read that stuff with great interest. I know I dabbled in the idea quiet a few years ago, but I didn't know enough then to follow all the way through with it and succeed. This time around it's working and working well.

It must be about 2 years ago when Arnie came to me asking if I would make a mold for him that would be a two-diameter paper patched mold for his freebored rifle and Bob's Browning, also with a generous freebore. Because I had my .40-65 with a more than generous freebore I agreed to make a mold to test the idea. I made that first mold to a drawing that Arnie made and that bullet has worked well for both Arnie and Bob. So this past fall I started on my own two-diameter PPB. I first altered an existing nose pour adjustable mold that I had in order to find out what would fit my chamber as far as length and diameters. After a couple of efforts I had a pretty good idea what I needed and made the mold I'm shooting now. It appears that I got the sizes perfect and the design of the nose right where I needed it. It is a perfect fit to my chamber making this old rifle shoot amazingly well.

I'm well aware that the two-diameter PPB bullet has been around for a while, probably longer than we think. It certainly makes sense and it works!

I need to go back and reread you posts on this subject, I'm sure there's plenty of information there that I have forgotten.

I should see if I can't get some pictures together to post them here that would show what I have and how it works. That would explain a lot.

I actually shot two different bullets today. The offhand bullet is a patched to groove (actually freebore) diameter and the prone bullet is the two-diameter one. Both shoot well, but the offhand bullet is only 288 grains over 62.0 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss. Very mild shooting load and it would be plenty to knock over chickens.

JK1

[Don McDowell]

Both my 44 77s thrive on a dual diameter bullet, and the 44 90 st likes it. I have one for the 45s and one o0 likes it real well the other not so much. Thinking about getting one built for the herd of 40s gathering up here but haven't decided on the final dimensions yet.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

No, the match was at Merrill. I was up at 4 AM because my wife woke me up when heard something gnawing on the garage door. She has very good hearing unlike me. Turned out to be the porcupine that has been chewing up everything around here for week, including my shooting shack. So I had to go outside with a flashlight and convince the little bugger to stop chewing on my buildings. By the time that was taken care of there was little point in crawling back in bed so I made coffee and got ready to head to Merrill. I'm usually awake around 5 anyway.

It was a fun shoot though, come on up next time. It's good practice for the Q for next year!

JK1

[Lead pot]

I have a couple squirrels chewing on my door. They have everything gone above the threshold. When September comes around they will be roasting over a open back yard fire pit. I hope they get sweeten up on chestnuts in time

[Don McDowell]

Kurt give Carolyn our best, hope she gets healed up soon.
Will you be able to come out for the Dean Scoggins memorial match?

[Lead pot]

TNX. Don I will tell her.
When and where id the match and what is the format?

[Don McDowell]

It's at Alliance, the weekend of July 29, 3 targets at 1000 yds. both days.
Deadeye and his spotter were at the Smithmoor match this weekend.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

jim,
arnie is ahead of me on the dd bullet thing.
a lot of my writings on them might include some supposition, as I often use posting on forums to clear the thoughts.
however I have found them to be very honest performers, and easy to load sans case sizing when the diameters are worked out correctly.
your chicken load idea is a good one.
I have often wondered about using a shallow seated lighter bullet in the 40/72, and replacing some of the powder space with grease wads and/or greased felt for chickens, in the hope of sometimes shooting dirty. failing that, minimal blowtubing.
kurt put me onto oiled felt, and doing it right by squeezing them before use.
loaded like this with neck tension, the bullet will not press back on them when chambered causing leakage.
possibly massive proportions of oil will soften powder fouling like moist breath will, but not require blowing. just load and shoot.
yet to be tested.
the 40/72 is quite versatile like that.
long range ammo with a suitable bullet shallow seated is a very long cartridge.
arnies load of 85 gns of swiss is about standard depending on powder lots. it just plain works.
the first dd bullet I saw was a picture don McDowell posted, but his bullet was major diameter about the length of the bands on a normal greaser.
it just went from there, with a longer minor diameter to sit out in the rifling as much as a normal bore diameter pp bullet.
all the best with jk2.
if he keeps improving you might have to relegate jk1 to him and adopt jk2 yourself. (just joking)
keep safe,
bruce.

[Don McDowell]

The dual diameter bullets I use, can be short or they can be long, they are nose pour adjustable and can be tailored to specific needs. Loaded properly they can be shot dirty or not.

[martinibelgian]

I guess I'm just lucky with my rifle's chamber - shooting groove-diameter .458 bullets requires lots of neckturning of my cases, but sizing the cases without neckturning after trimming gets them the right size for bore-diameter bullets, these being a prefect friction fit in a case that's not neckturned - which is a trimmed and reformed Federal .470 Nitro Express case. Not by design, mind you - pure luck...