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Thread: Paper patch bullets

  1. #81
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    I know it is heresy, but I think Mann was wrong at least as much as he was right.

  2. #82
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    The American Creedmoor Cup match followed by the regional bptr long range match at Lodi Ws. in two weeks would be a very good chance for folks to find out just how good their loads are. Shooting at 1000 yds, in that cup match no spotter, will test your loads and your own spotting ability.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  3. #83
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Lodi matches is where most of us on this side of the big muddy do our load developments The average ranges in these parts are 100 to 200 yards.
    Are you coming to do your best?

  4. #84
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Not this year. Cliff got the dates solidified about a week after I had sent in our entry to the 22 regional. I knew if I told my bride sorry we're dropping the 22 match and going to Lodi, my widow would probably have most of my rifles sold by now.. Altho Zack said he was pretty sure he could talk her into giving him a couple of them..
    It is on the list for next year.
    Last year at Byers, in the High Plains Challenge match I ended up in 5th, and was tied with Bryan for the high score of 83 in the second target. That type of match is an awful lot of fun.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  5. #85
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    Lodi is where some of us on the other side of the Big Muddy go for load development too.

  6. #86
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    The following is about paper patched bullets loaded with black powder for target matches of either paper or steel gongs only.

    I did very well shooting bore diameter PPB out of my Shiloh.45-90 with a standard grease groove chamber, winning the Mother's Day match at Lodi in 2010 and 2011. That rifle shot well with grease grooved bullets, but it really shines with paper patched bullets. My 2010 final score was 753-2 (I know, the X-ring eluded me and others), which was 59 points ahead of 2nd place. So I know and can back up the fact that standard grease groove chambers can shoot bore diameter paper patched bullets very well.

    Having said that, there is no doubt in my mind that my .45-70 Hepburn with a Danielson paper patched chamber is the more accurate of the two rifles. I haven't won as many matches with my Hepburn (yet) as with my Shiloh but I have placed 2nd and 3rd many times with it and I can see the results on the target. I just need to shoot better.

    I have had very good results with groove diameter paper patched bullets in my CSA 1874 .50-70 with a grease groove chamber. I am working now with a CSA 1875 in .40-65 and a 2-diameter paper patched bullet that is shooting very well also. That is not only a grease groove chamber but it also has a freebore that is .375" long. The forward part of the bullet shank is patched to bore diameter and the back part of the shank is patched to the freebore diameter which is groove diameter plus .001".

    I believe almost every chamber configuration can be made to shoot paper patched bullets with match winning accuracy. I have one grease groove chambered rifle that refuses to play nice with paper patched bullets, but I'm still working with it. However if one is building a rifle or having a rifle built and wants to have success with paper patched bullets I would strongly suggest a chamber designed for bore diameter paper patched bullets. I believe match winning results will be easier to achieve with such a chamber.

    If you have a rifle with a grease groove chamber and want to shoot paper patched bullets I believe it is very likely it can be made to shoot as well or almost as well with a little patience and experimenting. I also believe bullet fit and proper loading of the correct components is absolutely important no matter what chamber you're working with.

    Just throwing whatever together and hoping for the best might work, if you're lucky. I've no doubt that there are those who have had a degree of success following different methods, but I think if you looked at the loads and bullets of those who are winning matches, especially long range matches, you'd see many things in common.

    If you want to just plink at 100 or 200 yards with PPBs I suppose almost anything could work. If you want to win matches shooting PPBs listen to those who are winning matches or placing near the top consistently.

    I find paper patched bullets to be superior to grease grooved bullets in performance and much easier to load in my opinion. I still shoot a few grease grooved bullets over black powder but not for serious target work.

    Just my thoughts after 10 or so year of competing in long range and mid range matches with paper patched bullets in several different rifles.

    Jim Kluskens
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    RPRNY, you can speculate on my insecurities all you want. I'm sure you are right. Meanwhile, it doesn't fix your claims. If you want us to believe you, when you can't even reference Paul Matthews correctly, then you will need to provide something in the way of data. Scores in recognized competitions using standard chambers and groove diameter bullets, or at least comparable targets. Martinibelgian has credibility when it comes to groove diameter bullets. You not so much - not yet anyway. Feel free to prove us wrong. Heck, come to a match and I'll buy you dinner if you can beat me with groove diameter paper patches and a standard chamber. I'd love to see you do it. You can diagnose my insecurities up close and personal then too.

    Chris, I have not tried bore diameter grease grooves at all. I know Rick Moritz did, but how extensively and exactly what he did, I don't know. I just know he didn't like the results. As for muzzleloaders, I know some did, but the ones I know personally have all gone to paper. I'm sure there are others out doing it, but they are not in the winner's circle at Oak Ridge. Beyond that, I don't really know much about the muzzleloading crowd. I'm learning however...

    Lead pot, I don't doubt that many folks have tried bore diameter grease groove bullets in the times of yore. But there is not much information on them, and very few people have done it in modern times where everything has to be reinvented. I think it must be workable. Maybe not worthwhile, but workable.

    kokomokid, as of Late March of 2016, Shaver was shooting paper patched bullets, bore diameter, of course, in his muzzleloader. He did not come to Oak Ridge this year, so I don't know if that's changed. I would bet probably not.
    You clearly have a real issue. Chippy. I did not address or refute any remarks you made. I explained what I have learned and it contradicts your belief. Tough. Move on. I don't know who you imagine you are or why you think you're the forum bully-boy but I know what I have experienced and what has worked over the years. Your insistence on patching to bore diameter moves me not one bit. That has not been my experience, nor is it the experience of many I have shot with and admired. You hold whatever belief you like, but don't challenge me on mine, sunshine. We know you're a pedant, but whether you're a shooter or just another internet hero is another matter. I'm done with you now.

  8. #88
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    I have tried bore diameter greasers in a cartridge gun.
    they were used in original sharps tight chambers for hunting, and are now used in some long range muzzle loaders.
    I have long been of the opinion that a bullet bumps up suddenly enough to form an instant seal in the barrel.
    shooting bore diameter pp bullets suggested this to be true, as they will seal with even a paper wad.
    this was not the case with the greaser and 0.030 or 0.060 wads, both veg and ldpe.
    much leading occurred.
    my most successful pp bullets are dual diameter, as I have greaser chambers, and I can fill the case diameter with bullet, as well as get a nice sliding fit in the bore with the majority of the bullet.
    with the failure of the bore diameter greaser, a mould was made with the 2 bottom bands filling the case neck and all the other bands a sliding fit in the bore.
    I had been getting good success with 12:1 alloy pp bullets so started there with the greaser.
    leading again.
    they grouped about 5" at 200 yds which is insufficient.
    the obvious next step is to try something really soft like 20:1, but time has not permitted.
    it would seem that more bumping up happens to the grooves of the bullet, robbing the bands of a serious bumpup seal. (conjecture)
    and yet I have yet to recover a so called bore riding nosed bullet without rifling marks in the bore ride section.
    where there are no grooves in the bullet, bumpup happens well.
    this can be a leading problem in any barrel.
    recent observances of long range muzzle loader shooting, bore diameter pp and gg bullets, reveals that they put great store in the wad/wads sealing the bore.
    I have watched their vert improve as they add wads, mostly mixtures of oiled felt and card.
    it would appear that the wad seal is more important than I thought.
    using 0.4" wads in a muzzle loader is not a problem, as the whole barrel length is available for wad stacks.
    the old sharps greasers were loaded with a fairly thick grease wad which also would have sealed.
    many Winchester greasers were undersize, like 0.406 in a 0.408+ groove diameter.
    they were 20:1, and worked in repeaters.
    to use serious wad stacks in cartridge guns requires serious cartridges.
    for long range use, the shorter case are not suited to this.
    I will pursue the mostly bore diameter greaser as time permits.
    probably with lubed felt and or a grease wad to act as a seal.
    but in the meantime the dual diameter pp will be the workhorse.
    it is just so honest.
    keep safe,
    bruce.
    Last edited by BRUCE MOULDS; 05-26-2017 at 05:04 AM.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPRNY View Post
    You clearly have a real issue. Chippy. I did not address or refute any remarks you made. I explained what I have learned and it contradicts your belief. Tough. Move on. I don't know who you imagine you are or why you think you're the forum bully-boy but I know what I have experienced and what has worked over the years. Your insistence on patching to bore diameter moves me not one bit. That has not been my experience, nor is it the experience of many I have shot with and admired. You hold whatever belief you like, but don't challenge me on mine, sunshine. We know you're a pedant, but whether you're a shooter or just another internet hero is another matter. I'm done with you now.
    clearly, sir, you have no clue about BrentD.

  10. #90
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    RPRNY,

    When you are patching at bore plus .002" are you seating those deep into the case or are you able to seat them shallow and some how push them into the bore? I'm just trying to understand how the bullet is aligned with the bore when chambered.

    At bore plus .002" and if seated deep the bullet would be loose in any grease groove chamber/case. I had a very difficult time chambering my paper patched bullets when seated shallow even at bore plus .001". The result in matches was not good because I often had rounds that would not chamber completely and I couldn't close the action. I'd have to get up and knock the bullet out with my cleaning rod, get back in position, chamber another round hoping I could close the action. All the up and down and commotion took time and got me out of position which didn't result in good scores. Now I'm back to bullets that give a slight resistance when the rounds are chambered and excellent accuracy as result. Again, I talking about excellent accuracy from 500 to 1000 yards which is where I do most of my match shooting. I have found 100 yard shooting to be next to worthless as an indication of down range accuracy and 200 yards to be a little better. The real test is at 900 and 1000 yards under match conditions.

    For me it works best when the bullets are patched to a snug fit in the bore and seated only .060 to .100" into the case so the bullet to bore alignment is as good as it can get and excellent accuracy results. I'm talking about chambers with very little to no freebore be they tight paper patched chambers or grease groove chambers. Once you have any amount of freebore I think the whole idea of bullet fit and alignment changes the required patched diameter.

    Again these are target loads, hunting/plinking loads are a different animal.

    JK1
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPRNY View Post
    I'm done with you now.
    Thank you, thank you, thank you.

    PS... I'm a shooter

  12. #92
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    I am constantly amazed with the knowledge shared so freely here , I am still trying to decide on gas check or plain base .

  13. #93
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    don't rule out paper.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    don't rule out paper.
    No Sr I'm wide open to try everything , I just wish I had started 30 years ago .

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by toallmy View Post
    No Sr I'm wide open to try everything , I just wish I had started 30 years ago .
    oh man, me too! i'm so late to the ppb game. but better late than never, sez i.

  16. #96
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Distant Thunder View Post
    Having said that, there is no doubt in my mind that my .45-70 Hepburn with a Danielson paper patched chamber is the more accurate of the two rifles. I haven't won as many matches with my Hepburn (yet) as with my Shiloh but I have placed 2nd and 3rd many times with it and I can see the results on the target. I just need to shoot better.

    Jim Kluskens
    Jim I think most of us fail a good rifle with the space between the ears or a well developed load during a match.
    My ambition is to win the Quigley that has a shooters list 600 plus of some of the best around from all States and over seas. I made it in the top 20's several times and as close as 11th only because the space between the ears failed me from not changing the sights from 600 to 800 yards and loosing two shots. I know the rifles or the spotters get the blame mostly but I think if we are honest with our thoughts that it mostly falls on us the shooter..........Kurt

    By the way Jim, if you ever want to chamber a .44-75 Ballard, .44-100 rem St, .45-2.4 or .40-64 along with a special reamer for the sizing die. I have good patch only reamers your welcome to use.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Distant Thunder View Post
    RPRNY,

    When you are patching at bore plus .002" are you seating those deep into the case or are you able to seat them shallow and some how push them into the bore? I'm just trying to understand how the bullet is aligned with the bore when chambered.

    At bore plus .002" and if seated deep the bullet would be loose in any grease groove chamber/case. I had a very difficult time chambering my paper patched bullets when seated shallow even at bore plus .001". The result in matches was not good because I often had rounds that would not chamber completely and I couldn't close the action. I'd have to get up and knock the bullet out with my cleaning rod, get back in position, chamber another round hoping I could close the action. All the up and down and commotion took time and got me out of position which didn't result in good scores. Now I'm back to bullets that give a slight resistance when the rounds are chambered and excellent accuracy as result. Again, I talking about excellent accuracy from 500 to 1000 yards which is where I do most of my match shooting. I have found 100 yard shooting to be next to worthless as an indication of down range accuracy and 200 yards to be a little better. The real test is at 900 and 1000 yards under match conditions.

    For me it works best when the bullets are patched to a snug fit in the bore and seated only .060 to .100" into the case so the bullet to bore alignment is as good as it can get and excellent accuracy results. I'm talking about chambers with very little to no freebore be they tight paper patched chambers or grease groove chambers. Once you have any amount of freebore I think the whole idea of bullet fit and alignment changes the required patched diameter.

    Again these are target loads, hunting/plinking loads are a different animal.

    JK1
    So, there may be some terminology issues here. There are tighter and looser chambers. I don't believe they are necessarily "paper patched chambers" and grease groove chambers", just different sized chambers. Seating depth of course depends on bullet length. In a big, sloppy chamber, it will be hard to get anything to shoot well, but a soft alloy greaser sized to throat might be the best bet. Otherwise, in a reasonably sized chamber, I seat to get the bullet just the smallest bit off the lands or touching, but not pushed into them, to avoid what you describe, the problem of unintentional breach seating. Again, provided the leade is reasonably shallow, my experience is that accuracy is best achieved when patched slightly into the groove, but what "slightly" means varies. That said, I don't think there's an accurate rule of thumb on this. It depends on the bullet, alloy, overall load, and the nature of the rifling and one has to work out each with whichever rifle one is shooting to get the best from that combination.

  18. #98
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    Kurt,

    Placing in the top at a match like the Q is no small accomplishment and I congratulate you on doing so well and even more so for doing it over a period of time.

    I know what you mean about the space between our ears often defeating us before the match is over. I shot at the Lodi long matches for about 5 years before I finally managed a 2nd place finish. That was in many ways a win for me because it made me realize that I was not a participant, but that I had at least a change of winning the match. In those early days Lodi drew a much bigger crowd and from much farther away. There were many excellent shooters that won or placed and getting to that number one spot continued to stay just out of my reach. Once I even managed a 3rd place finish and I was just 7 points behind first place! It was some tough competition, but I worked hard at it and talked to a lot of shooters who were winning matches all over the country and even the world. One thing that I greatly appreciated and the reason I love this BPTR competition over all the others I tried is that everyone of those champions answered my questions freely and some spent considerable time walking me through what they had learned.

    The greatest obstacle I had to overcome was my own errors, mostly mental ones. That finally happened in 2009. Before that match I had decided that in spite of all my efforts winning just wasn't in the cards for me. I planned to go to the match that May and just enjoy shooting with my friends and enjoy the weekend, to relax a little. Like many matches before that one I was in the running after the first day. My down fall usually came the second day at 1000 yards. I'd end up shooting like it was my first match ever. That Sunday morning I was relaxed and thinking clearly and I shot a good score at 1000. Then again at 900 and again at 800! When my name was called as the high aggregate I didn't believe it. After 12 years going to every match at Lodi it had happened, I had won! I just needed two days back to back when I didn't take myself out of the running with some stupid brain fart of a miss.

    Now to be honest, my spotters, Glenn & Tony, were two of the best. They worked hard at getting me there, they were limited only by me. My rifle was capable of winning, my loads were capable of winning, I just needed to do my part and not screw it up. It wasn't easy.

    Even today, if I don't win or at least place in the top 3, it's on me and I know that. I don't just have shoot better than the other shooter, I have to shoot better than the guy behind my own rifle usually does. I just need to watch him very closely so that he doesn't let my spotters and rifle down.

    After that first win it has been easier because I believe I can win before I even leave home, but I really keep a close eye on my biggest enemy, myself.

    That first time was with my .45-90 Shiloh and a grease grooved bullet, but I used that opportunity to make the jump to PPBs and with Brent's help and the success I've had with PPBs I've never even thought of going back to greasers for long range competition.

    The superiority of the bore diameter PPB is so evident on the target range that I am forever a believer. Anyone who looks that the match results from Lodi over the past 7 or 8 years will see that PPBs continue to make a good showing for themselves, winning the majority of the matches and putting many shooters in the top 10 on a regular basis. There is no better projectile for long range BPTR matches, though there are greasers that come close.

    And, the ladies appreciate a man who is well dress and not all greasy! For me every little bit helps! Paper patched bullets and appreciative women, what's not to like?!

    JK1
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  19. #99
    Boolit Buddy Distant Thunder's Avatar
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    RPRNY,

    I'm seeing what you are saying and I don't disagree as much as it might sound. One thing you are entirely wrong about is this, there is such a thing a chamber designed for bore diameter paper patched bullets, how could you think otherwise. I have such a chamber in my Hepburn. It is not possible to seat a bullet more than .452" in diameter in the fired unsized cases. If you did some how get a .458 or bigger bullet in the case it would never chamber, not even close!

    I don't know about original rifles of the 1800s, but some here do and they say there were chambers back then that were designed to take a bore diameter paper patched bullet only. I believe them.

    My Hepburn is a modern built rifle and it is what I know. There are many other rifles being built today or rebarreled today that have similar chambers design for the same purpose, bore diameter paper patched bullets.

    Just thinking here, but if bore diameter paper patched bullets were the projectile of choice in the 1870s and there would have been the same obstacles to overcome if they used those bore diameter bullets in a greaser chamber, don't you think they would designed their chambers for those bullets? Just like we are doing today. So I don't think you are correct about the paper patched chambers.

    Now, if one is going to load bore diameter paper patched bullets in a grease groove chamber, you are right a tight chamber is better. It is also better if it doesn't have any "freebore", but that at least can be dealt with.

    The main reason I choose to shoot paper patched bullets that are bore diameter is for the accuracy they provide. I also like the no leading aspect. That accuracy is a result of the bullet being nearly completely in on the lands of the rifle before the trigger is pulled. If done the way I do it, there is only .060-.100" of the bullet in the case, a little is over the chamber transition from cases to lead and the lead itself, but the rest of the bullet is in as prefect an alignment as is possible sitting snug in on the lands.

    Booooom!!!! The powder ignites and before the bullets nose moves very much if at all the laws of inertia come into play and the base end is pushed forward while the nose resists the forward movement. That results in the diameter of the bullet "bumping up" to engage the rifling imparting spin as the bullet begins to move down the barrel and out the muzzle eventually passing through the 10-ring before impacting the good earth on the other side of the target. No where in that sequence of events does that bullet have to bump up and then be reduced in diameter by any portion of the chamber or bore. Except the very last part of the base, a necessary evil of the fixed cartridge. Breech seating would get away from some, but all, of that up and down sizing.

    The bullet becomes fatter and shorter but in a very controlled and contained environment, the rifle's bore. It doesn't get anymore accurate than that. It is an absolute wonder to me that the other systems work at all, much more so that they work as well as they do. Speaking of any bullets that start out somewhere outside of the actual bore and most "find" their way to it by undergoing a series of transitions through various diameter all while being push really, really hard by the dark forces of black powder. I boggles my mind how it works, but it does.

    I will also agree that there is more than one way to paper patch a lead bullet, many of them can work! For me the best accuracy has been with a cast bullet of sufficient hardness to withstand the forces of black powder enough to maintain the high BC but just soft enough to take the rifling well as it bumps up while wrapped in as thin of paper as I can find that is made of 100% cotton and fits into the bore of my rifle snug with a comfortable thumb pressure seated as shallow as possible but so the loaded cartridge pushing it in to the bore as far as possible does not lose the bullet in the process.

    This works for me, always. There are details of the load that I feel are solid and repeatable, powder, primers, cases, and wads, but this discussion is focused on the paper patched bullet at the moment so I'll stay with that. It is important to understand that NO rule is always true, but I believe the way I have learned has a high likelihood of success in many instances.

    I've done nothing but take the things that I have learned from others and maybe fine tuned them to suit my rifle and some other things that have held true through my journey in paper patching.

    If I don't win the match I'm damn sure going to make sure the guy who does earns it! The funny things is, the guys I chase so hard are the guys who have help me to learn enough to be hard on their heels. Thank you, Brent.

    Damn this stuff is fun! JK1
    Jim Kluskens
    aka Distant Thunder

    Black powder paper patching is a journey, enjoy the ride!

  20. #100
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    RPRNY
    This is what Jim is talking about when you have a chamber tight the bullet will not upset to the standard wide chamber where it will upset more in the case and then it has to swage back down to a lesser diameter bore/groove. When A bullet leaves the muzzle looking like this one undamaged from getting kneaded like putty back down to fit the throat then the error of that bullet not hitting center is yours.


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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check