it all don't much matter - greasers are just a passing fancy, like smokeless powders.
|
   
   
|
|
it all don't much matter - greasers are just a passing fancy, like smokeless powders.
Tight paper-patch chambers definitely have an edge over regular chambers - but you have to be able shoot well enough to be able to detect the difference even with very favorable conditions. The difference is not huge.
Among those chamber designs that are called paper-patch chambers, some are better than others. Those that displace the least amount of metal are the best, but the differences are, again, small and, thus, hard to detect w/o a lot of quality shooting.
Someone ought to experiment really hard with bore-diameter, grease-groove, bullets loaded as if they were paper patches. This has been tried by at least one person, but I don't think it was a major effort. It might be the ultimate design. But I will leave that for someone else to pioneer.
Don, I find myself quite in agreement with you. First, I don't necessarily hold with the view that there were "paper patch" and "greaser" chambers per se in the original Sharps and Remington big bore rifles. There were differences in chambers but I am not convinced that those differences were necessarily of a purpose.Originally Posted by Don McDowell
Next, while an overly capacious throat is not desirable for either greaser or ppb, it is fair to say that such a throat is more easily dealt with by greaser than by ppb. However, the school of thought that holds religiously with Mathews' view that ppb must be bore rather than groove diameter is being overly orthodox. My own experience, and that of others, is that there is very little rhyme or reason to bullet diameter effectiveness. There is a bullet diameter that works well with PPB in a rifle, and others rarely do. Whereas, with greasers, one can rarely go wrong with "fill the throat, fill the groove", there is no "patch to bore" rule in ppb. It depends. It depends on the rifle. It depends on the groove cut. It depends on velocity. The one part of chamber design that I think does play an important role is leade taper. I do think that a shallow leade taper is important and easier to get a bullet into the rifling without having damaged the paper patch.
But the bore diameter patch purists have got it wrong. A patch is a jacket. I have not had much luck patching beyond groove diameter except one rifle in 40-65 that finally found its groove with bullets patched to .001 over groove depth, but it was fairly shout out and had shallow, dull rifling. But never, ever have I found best accuracy at, or under, bore diameter. I almost always start .002 over bore diameter with a new load and while it occasionally wants more and sometimes less, I never get the best from bore and under.
Nevertheless, as we are wont to do in this bizarre little subculture, I am parsing hairs. A shallow leade and a tight chamber are to be preferred to a steep leade and a sloppy throat with ppb, that we know. Having said that, I am of the view that this is true in a general sense when accuracy is the goal and that it is not unique to ppb. I do not believe there is a solid rule on ppb diameter to bore and groove. Each rifle, and bullet, and alloy, wants it's own approach.
RPRNY,
If you have read Matthews even casually, you should know that he does not advocate subscribe to "the school of thought that holds religiously with Mathews' view that ppb must be bore rather than groove diameter". Indeed most of his writing was about using groove diameter and even smokeless charges.
Personally, I don't think leade angle is all that critical. Lots of angles will work from 3-7 degrees easily and probably an even wider range.
Meanwhile, patching to bore works. It was and is the most common, but not only, way to shoot paper patches, and it certainly is easy and effective. I don't think we have anything wrong at all. So far, bore diameter rules the firing lines and the scoreboards. You are always welcome to put up better results, but so far, bore diameter wins and for good reason.
Sooooo touchy. Usually a sign of insecurity. You apparently have an experience. Mine differs.
RPNY most of us have "differing experiences". A person can take a sloppy chamber such as on the pedersoli's and other imported and some USA built guns and get good accuracy with patched but it's going to be with a bore diameter plus bullet. But many times those bullets need be seated quite deep.
Bore diameter final wrapped bullets can be seated shallow to somewhat deep and shoot well.
The whole thing boils down to working with what you have, not what you wish you had, and the best results might not jive with some of the common internet wisdom and it may not line up well with what some folks published in books earlier.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Bore diameter GG are nothing new Brent. They where around in the 1800rds. They had a deep hollow base and fairly thick skirt. Sharps made moulds for different rifle company's and they also sold naked 2 channelures used for express loads. I had some 43 Spanish for the roller when I could still buy factory loads at the local lumber yard
Brent didn't you try bore diameter GG bullets once? I thought I remember a post by you maybe 5+ years ago.
Much of F.W. Mann's testing for his book was done with soft bore diameter bullets. I have a version of his book with Pope's annotations ( which are nearly impossible to decipher. He could have been a pharmacist
I've often wondered about bore diameter GG bullets but I am unlikely to buy a mold and spend the time testing. Brent, do any of the long range muzzleloader shooters use bore diameter GG bullets or are paper patched bullets the only ones in use?
Chris.
What is Lee Shaver shooting in his muzzleloader ?
Chris, Lots of long range ml shooters use GG bullets. I used to supply Joe Hepsworth GG bullets to his mail order business. When he passed I got a lot of his customers.
I once owned a matched pair of GG and PP bullet molds, or as close as you can get. I could not see any difference at the long lines. I sold the GG ML bullet to Rick Webber. I still have the PP twin.
Last edited by Chill Wills; 05-25-2017 at 07:07 PM.
Chill Wills
Most currently, I don't know. I have not talked to him in a while. But I know he has shot both a lot over the years.
Thanks for that information.
Chris.
Gunlaker,
I believe Franklin Mann concluded best performing bullets with bore diameter
body and groove dia base band.
beltfed/arnie
Arnie who made the mould for that bullet you gave me at Rapids ?
RPRNY, you can speculate on my insecurities all you want. I'm sure you are right. Meanwhile, it doesn't fix your claims. If you want us to believe you, when you can't even reference Paul Matthews correctly, then you will need to provide something in the way of data. Scores in recognized competitions using standard chambers and groove diameter bullets, or at least comparable targets. Martinibelgian has credibility when it comes to groove diameter bullets. You not so much - not yet anyway. Feel free to prove us wrong. Heck, come to a match and I'll buy you dinner if you can beat me with groove diameter paper patches and a standard chamber. I'd love to see you do it. You can diagnose my insecurities up close and personal then too.
Chris, I have not tried bore diameter grease grooves at all. I know Rick Moritz did, but how extensively and exactly what he did, I don't know. I just know he didn't like the results. As for muzzleloaders, I know some did, but the ones I know personally have all gone to paper. I'm sure there are others out doing it, but they are not in the winner's circle at Oak Ridge. Beyond that, I don't really know much about the muzzleloading crowd. I'm learning however...
Lead pot, I don't doubt that many folks have tried bore diameter grease groove bullets in the times of yore. But there is not much information on them, and very few people have done it in modern times where everything has to be reinvented. I think it must be workable. Maybe not worthwhile, but workable.
kokomokid, as of Late March of 2016, Shaver was shooting paper patched bullets, bore diameter, of course, in his muzzleloader. He did not come to Oak Ridge this year, so I don't know if that's changed. I would bet probably not.
Brent they didn't shoot to well for me either, but 64 years ago I didn't know enough to control the fouling either
yeah, and 64 yrs ago was before they even had gunpowder
I know what you mean about maybe needing to revisit some early experiments
No I don't think I will ever send a naked bullet down my rifle again.
There is time for nakedness, but it ain't in my rifle's barrel.
Arnie it's possible that was his ultimate conclusion, but I just had a look in my "Pope annotated" edition on p 122 and he states ( and I'm paraphrasing here ) that nothing beat pure lead bore diameter bullets with black powder in seven .32 caliber barrels.
Pope has a bunch of mostly illegible comments in the margin that seem to state that Mann is wrong
Interestingly in the notes section at the very beginning of the book he pretty much says the opposite, saying that he does not intend to state that these bore diameter bullets are superior to the Pope system. Interestingly I have another copy of the book in a PDF document which seems to be a scan of an original copy. This version doesn't contain the section where he mentions the Pope system.
It is a funny sort of book, he often doesn't present his conclusions for his various experiments. I'll have to read it again one of these days. I was hoping that when I bought the annotated version I'd find some interesting stuff in Pope's comments, but I honestly cannot read his handwriting in most cases.
Chris.
Posting Permissions
| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
Reply With Quote
Chill Wills