Paper patch bullets

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

That looks pretty much the same way I patch mine. I haven't wetted a patch in years and don't miss the water any. I can sit down anywhere with a bunch of patches and bullets and just wrap them between my fingers, roll the end over the base and they are ready to load. I think they shoot better patched dry.

Jim

[Lead pot]

Jim, I used to wet patch for a undersized bullet to get it slightly over bore diameter, .001 to .0015" and they shot ok but at times I found paper on the plywood backer and found patch remnants down range to far that made me quit all together wet patching.
Sometimes I read that some use milk, egg whites even elmers glue mixed in water to keep the patches from unrolling and they say they get one hole groups all day long doing this makes me wonder if that target is on the 25 yard pistol line.

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

I just don't see the Elmer's glue guys on the 1000 yard line, they are welcome anytime they choose to join us!

That being said I have read several different methods of patching bullets with the idea of having the patch stay with bullet much like a jacket would and I might maybe see some value in that idea for short range hunting loads with smokeless powder mostly because they could be made to be more weather proof than my 100% cotton patch applied dry.

I had to make a special effort to keep my patches dry at 300 yards Saturday morning in the light but steady rain we had on first relay. Pain in the butt! I don't know that I would like putting wet brass in my chamber much either.

No, I'll stay with my dry patched bullets, they shoot so well I see no reason to change anything.

[Lead pot]

I wrap my hunting bullets with 100% cotton vellum paper. You can get it wet in your pocket and the patch stays good. It will not shred like cotton onion skin but it strips off the bullet well enough.

[StanleyMcGregor]

I can see that PP bullets have some advantages. Paper patching offers a way to increase the effective diameter of a bullet to bore size while still providing good performance. It enables you to get good results with cast bullets Paper patching prevents leading and resulting inaccuracy at high velocity. Paper - though combustible - will not melt.

[BrentD]

Stanley, you are only beginning to touch upon the benefits of The Paper Patch Way.

Most important is that you will look your best standing on the firing line loading paper patches. Never will you look finer or more commanding.

then, you will shoot well. In part because you know you look and feel your best when traveling the Paper Patch Way. Confidence is only part of it. Self esteem, intrinsic worth and value to society, and a host of other things will also improve your scores.

And there is the, "Let's stand apart from the crowd" effect. That cannot be matched by anything other than Paper Patches. Isn't that why we all give up our scoped bolt rifles (if we ever even owned one to begin with)?

That will get superior aerodynamics, simpler loading protocols, and better intrinsic accuracy are only minor benefits compared to all the intangible advantages that The Paper Patch Way provides.

March to your own beat and load the best, shoot the best, and look the best!

[rfd]

what brent posted x 10 ... amen to my brothers of the paper patch way.

[RPRNY]

Barrel Life/20,000 rounds
I should care if my grandkids will need to rebarrel my Sharps.

Having just finished patching and firing a goodly number of P/P in two different guns and having finished "THE SCHUTZEN RIFLE" by Ned Roberts I will offer a couple of observations.

I think the major problem we have today with P/P is the rifling in the barrels and our choices of powder. Although Ned mentions wiping ever shot for target shooting he also sys that he expected his hunting load to go 10 shots without wiping. In an original Sharps I was able to get 5 shots without wiping pretty easy and with the moden gun I am still working with lubes trying to get off of three. Ned also made a point of saying that each rifle had a lube preference and what worked in one might not work in another. Having shot a goodly number of black powders over the years i think that Swiss is the best we are likey to get anymore. The quality of the powder is directly related to the quality of the charcoal and the millling time and milling is the dangerous part and so is skimped on now days.

Even with these limitation I think that with a proper leade and good lube 5 to 6 shots without wiping are attainable. I am planning to do a lot of P/P work this summer with both the 45-70 and the 38-55 and I am making up a throating reamer so I can by degrees try and match the old Sharps leade. My expiriments so far have got me convinced that I will shoot my next Buffalo with a paper patched bullet.

Now for the bad news..

Quoting Ned Roberts...
"By the 1890's we had determined that the naked lead slug surpassed the paper patch slug when breech seated." This was from the best target guns of the day and were in rifles capable of minute of angle shooting. Paper patch does have some advantage for hunting, but the naked slug was superior in accuracy and that is why the P/P went out of fashion.

So I agree with a good deal of this. I have been shooting paper patched bullets for about a decade with both smokeless and black powder in calibers from .30 to .50. I have also read Major Roberts' excellent book referenced above and will take issue with "the bad news conclusion" . It was the cupro-nickel patched bullet that did away with paper patching, not lead greasers. Roberts was talking about a very specialized form of shooting - breach seating - in a very specialized shooting discipline, Schuetzen, that had become even more refined in the latter half of the 1890s, embracing much smaller calibers in the 32-40 range. Greasers better addressed fouling and at the low velocities of Schuetzen ran less risk of leading.

The paper jacket was for large caliber, relatively higher velocity rounds in service and hunting rifles. When treated like a jacketed bullet, paper patching is much more rewarding and successful. My experience, which may not include universal truths,has taught me the following:

Accuracy with pp has more to do with powder and developing a set of components for a load that deliver really low, preferably single digit, standard deviation in velocity than it does with the perfection of one's wrap.

Paper patching is most effective/accurate with heavy for caliber bullets

There does not appear, in my experience, to be a solid rule of thumb on wrap diameter to groove depth and it very much matters how the grooves were cut.

In some rifles patching to groove depth is key, in others, patch just .002" over bore is the trick. I can find neither rhyme nor reason and getting pp right is time consuming.

No lube. Other than the very lightest little bit around the base to help it seat in the case, no lube on the paper or boolit is best.

Anyway, my observations, for what free observations from an unknown source are worth...

[MaxJon]

Sounds awesome!

[54bore]

Lookin good rfd!!

[rfd]

while i've only been at this fascinating ppb game since last fall, i think that ppb's might get, or are getting, a bad rap IF they're used in guns with barrel chambers not particularly designed for that style of black powder cartridge.

the black powder pushed ppb will be at, or under, land bore diameter. the lubed bullet will be at, or greater, than land groove diameter. then consider how that bore riding ppb will sit in a larger throat chamber that has a significant leade, while the the ppb is hopefully long enuf to predominantly sit into the rifling. this is not to imply that ppb's couldn't or shouldn't or won't work in greaser chambers, it's just that in the best of worlds, black powder cartridge ppb's are probably best used with ppb chambered rifles ... for whatever one thinks "best" means ... for me, it's about consistent accuracy at 200 yards and lots more ... which is why my ordered shiloh will have a ppb chamber.

[54bore]

while i've only been at this fascinating ppb game since last fall, i think that ppb's might get, or are getting, a bad rap IF they're used in guns with barrel chambers not particularly designed for that style of black powder cartridge.

the black powder pushed ppb will be at, or under, land bore diameter. the lubed bullet will be at, or greater, than land groove diameter. then consider how that bore riding ppb will sit in a larger throat chamber that has a significant leade, while the the ppb is hopefully long enuf to predominantly sit into the rifling. this is not to imply that ppb's couldn't or shouldn't or won't work in greaser chambers, it's just that in the best of worlds, black powder cartridge ppb's are probably best used with ppb chambered rifles ... for whatever one thinks "best" means ... for me, it's about consistent accuracy at 200 yards and lots more ... which is why my ordered shiloh will have a ppb chamber.

I will be anxiously awaiting your work with the new shiloh! When will you get it rfd?

[rfd]

it appears that perhaps it will arrive when hell freezes over - or hopefully this december.

[Don McDowell]

The thinking that to shoot paper patch bullets well you need to have a special chamber is not quite right. Shiloh's and C Sharps standard chambers will both shoot paper patch well, as will CPA's standard chambers.
Probably more good paper patch loads have been missed by poor or incomplete fouling control methods than anything.

[rfd]

yes, almost any type of barrel chamber can be made to shoot ppb's well. HOWEVER, some of us want better than "well", we want "exceptional".

which appears to have been the way it was done somewhere in the later part of the 19th century, but all but near forgotten just how it was done. thanx to a number of well known forensic ppb pioneers, we're getting back in the saddle as to how to load for ppb's and what they prefer in a firearm configuration.

a ppb cartridge that sits inside a chamber meant for land groove sized bullets is always at some measure of disadvantage, most notably since it will need to get resized twice upon ignition - once at the freebore and again as it squeezes down into the rifling. remember that a black powder ppb cartridge will have a bore, or under bore, patched bullet - not a land groove or over land groove lubed bullet.

this means having a chamber ream with no freebore, using cases that are absolutely no longer in length than the chamber will allow (to prevent "chamber crimp"), where all of this allows a patched bore sized (or under bore sized) bullet that sits atop real black powder (and some manner of wad or wads) to reside within the barrel's rifling, are at the advantage over a lube bullet chamber ream.

in essence, a rifle chamber made for a ppb will make for a more consistent and therefore more accurate shooting cartridge and rifle.

[BrentD]

My chambers are a little bit different than what yours will be, but they will accomplish the job fairly similarly. They are also easy to get shooting well. Load development wont take long.

[Don McDowell]

Well by golly having rifles with both "paper patch" chambers and standard chambers I can tell you from hard earned experience, that when you think outside the box and load both rifles to their potential there is no difference in the accuracy that can be achieved.
Bullet diameter, length and alloy , will play a bigger part than chamber type.

[Gunlaker]

When I first started shooting paper patched bullets I used "standard" grease groove chambers. I could get them to shoot pretty well. My rifles with chambers designed for bore diameter bullets are more consistent shooters for me. They are less likely to throw a flyer. However Kenny Wasserburger has shown that master class scores can be shot using PP bullets and the standard Shiloh chamber.

I think the main advantage with PP bullets is that they are aligned very well with the bore and thus are very likely to be balanced when they leave the muzzle. I think the main disadvantage is the little bit of extra time needed to manage the bore between shots. I like them because they are really more "period correct" for target shooting, however I do seem to shoot greasers more often these days.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Don I'm going to disagree on the chamber. Yes you need to tune the bullets to the twist and also the powder charges. But when it comes to lead bullets naked or patched the chamber plays a large roll. All of my rifles with a "standard" chamber have been changed with a different lead angle and all have improved in accuracy and the way they foul the bore. The rifles I had reamers made for that duplicate the originals with chambers that are tight that keeps the bullets from getting kneaded like putty out perform the large standard chambers.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt that's what makes a horse race, but when you look at what Kenny, Eddie, and a few others are able to do with a standard Shiloh chamber... I'm also really impressed with what Carol's CSA 40-65 is showing with patched bullets. My CSA Hepburn 40-70 will shoot patched better than greasers, when the triggers work properly. The Raton gun and it's "standard" chamber will shoot patched bullets right along with greasers, just need to make the elevation adjustment difference between the naked and the patched bullet..