Paper patch bullets

[Distant Thunder]

Kurt,

Thank you. I know you have a very impressive library of recovered bullets that show so clearly what a bullet looks like when things go wrong and what they look like when things go right. I've learned a lot from your post and looking at your bullets. So much more than my words along can describe. Minimum distortion of the bullet as it's put into flight is the goal and that yields excellent accuracy.

JK1

[RPRNY]

RPRNY
This is what Jim is talking about when you have a chamber tight the bullet will not upset to the standard wide chamber where it will upset more in the case and then it has to swage back down to a lesser diameter bore/groove. When A bullet leaves the muzzle looking like this one undamaged from getting kneaded like putty back down to fit the throat then the error of that bullet not hitting center is yours.

Thanks for the very cool photo. I am aware of what is under discussion with regard to chamber size and I have not taken issue with the position that a tighter chamber is preferable to looser chamber, nor have I expressed views that would suggest an unfamiliarity with obturation and how it works. I have taken issue with the idea that the only way to achieve accuracy with ppb is to patch the bullet out to bore diameter or less. I am certain that there are rifles in which that practice may be successful but it is not a rule which my experience or that of others with whom I have shot has born out. I do not believe that there is a "rule", and that, rather, a number of factors dictate what will, and will not, work. A tight chamber in which a very shallow leade takes a bullet from just off or touching the lands into the rifling with minimal, but sufficient, engagement of the rifling (as would very much appear to have been the case in your pictured bullet) is the ideal. But in my experience, particularly with original big bore rifles, but also with many modern repros that can be made to shoot well, the ideal is infrequent. Other people may have different views and experiences. With somewhat looser chambers, patching out to better fill the chamber, and thereby getting into the grooves at as much as .454", can substantially improve the performance of that rifle by mitigating the disruption to which you refer. I have one Pedersoli RB for example, that wants bullets patched out to .455" and with such bullets is a good gun out to maybe 500 yards but with lesser diameter ppbs shoots shotgun patterns at 100 yards. In any event, even with a tight chamber, shallow leade etc., I do not find that patching to sub-bore diameter or to a light fit works best.

[Gunlaker]

...

The greatest obstacle I had to overcome was my own errors, mostly mental ones. That finally happened in 2009. Before that match I had decided that in spite of all my efforts winning just wasn't in the cards for me. I planned to go to the match that May and just enjoy shooting with my friends and enjoy the weekend, to relax a little. Like many matches before that one I was in the running after the first day. My down fall usually came the second day at 1000 yards. I'd end up shooting like it was my first match ever.

...

JK1

Jim I think you've pretty much nailed the most difficult thing there is in this BPTR shooting. Developing the mental discipline to break perfect shots with no errors. Your experience pretty much mirrors my own in the last while. I just came back from the Wyoming state mid-range match, and for the first time I was in a position where it was possible for me to win a BPTR match, but I lost it big time on the last target. After the first day of 4 targets at 200&300 I was tied with Rick Moritz for points but he had me by x count. On the second day at 600 I had a significant advantage as I shot early in the day and he had the later relays. First target was a 90 which kept me in the running, and then the wheels fell off catastrophically and I shot a 60-something on the last target . That didn't feel so good, and made the job tough for my spotter. I had a similar catastrophic finish at the Phoenix 1000 yard match this spring. I had a great match and set a few personal bests including an 89, but died spectacularly on the last target, shooting in the 60's.

I've been playing a little with 0.002" thick Eesleek paper rather than the 8lb Seth Cole stuff I've used for the last several years. I size the bullets down 0.001" and they patch up a little bigger. Enough that they take a significant effort to chamber. I think this paper squishes a bit more than the Seth Cole so a tight bullet can be chambered more reliably. With the Seth Cole 8lb if the bullet is just a little too big I'm likely to have the patch get pushed back on the bullet when chambering it seems. Accuracy with the Eesleeck paper seems very good. I have not tested it at LR yet, but at 300 it's done very well.

Chris.

[BrentD]

Minimum distortion of the bullet as it's put into flight is the goal and that yields excellent accuracy.

JK1

Therein lies the secret to the effect of the chambering and whether it will be just okay, good, or excellent.

[BrentD]

Jim I think you've pretty much nailed the most difficult thing there is in this BPTR shooting. Developing the mental discipline to break perfect shots with no errors. Your experience pretty much mirrors my own in the last while.

That is certainly the name of the game in competitions, but hidden in Jim's essays is the second issue, and that's not giving up when you DO make a mistake. I watched Ray Hanson, years ago, come back from a very bad (for him) first day, to win the overall. I've seen Dave Gullo, at least once, come to the line with the wrong cartridges for the gun he had (.45-90s instead of .45-100s) and still win. So, knowing that I probably gave the match away when I walked my rifle off the paper because I turned the knobs the wrong way, I still stuck with it and (with some unbelievable spotting), pulled out a win the other day. Never give up, even when you know it is a lost cause.

[Lead pot]

Chris.
The chamber is important, but in my search for the gold cup is that the alloy has a larger key in this mix. If you don't have the right temper that will hold a bullets profile when the bullet get that hard kick in the hinder if they don't hold the nose from getting flattened out of shape and the lands don't hold the rotation from having alloys to hard or soft. The wads have an effect on the amount the bullet obdurate. A soft wad like felt or cork might work in a .45-2.4/6/8 will not get the proper expansion to fill the grooves with that bore diameter bullet in a .45-70 with lets uses 1/16 alloy in all rounds. It all is in the mix for hit and miss.
Kurt

[Gunlaker]

That is certainly the name of the game in competitions, but hidden in Jim's essays is the second issue, and that's not giving up when you DO make a mistake. I watched Ray Hanson, years ago, come back from a very bad (for him) first day, to win the overall. I've seen Dave Gullo, at least once, come to the line with the wrong cartridges for the gun he had (.45-90s instead of .45-100s) and still win. So, knowing that I probably gave the match away when I walked my rifle off the paper because I turned the knobs the wrong way, I still stuck with it and (with some unbelievable spotting), pulled out a win the other day. Never give up, even when you know it is a lost cause.

Yeah I agree with that. I've come back a couple of times from mistakes and got back on track. When practicing, I've shot beside people who got so worked when something unexpected happened that they were never able to recover .

Chris.

[BrentD]

If I don't win the match I'm damn sure going to make sure the guy who does earns it! The funny things is, the guys I chase so hard are the guys who have help me to learn enough to be hard on their heels. Thank you, Brent.

Damn this stuff is fun! JK1

There was a long time I was chasing you. And still do sometimes. You and Glenn schooled me the first time I shot long range but it was a hell of a fun lesson.

[kokomokid]

Jim, What paper are you finding at 100% cotton thin enough to use? THANKS LB

[Distant Thunder]

I have never advocated the use of bullets that are under bore, quire the opposite as I believe one of the key factors in achieving the excellent accuracy that paper patched bullets are capable of delivering is as tight a fit into the bore as is possible for you to chamber reliably. For me that is about .0005" over bore, but my thumb has suffered greatly from pushing hard on grease grooved bullets that didn't want to go into the lands without considerable force. I don't miss those days much these many years later. What a joy to chamber a paper patched bullet that resists ever so slightly! My thumb thanks me.

Care does need to be taken that the patch itself isn't damaged from chambering a bore plus bullet too. Anything that gets the shooter off his game needs to be avoided as much as possible. I have seen a some good shooters lose it when half the ammo in their box won't chamber and the clock is running.

Early on I struggled putting a bad shot behind me, whether it was my own error, a bad bullet, or the most common error, just plain old spotter error. I eventually learned that the most important shot is the next one. Now I can drop a complete miss like it was going on someone else's score and come right back and put the next one in the middle. It gets harder to do that after the third miss on one relay!!! I'm working on it though. I think I need that special tool that Brent has, the one that extracts your head from you posterior, yea that one.

Kurt is absolutely right that alloy plays a key role in accuracy with paper patched bullets. I just feel that there are several things, all of which are important and no one of which is the only key. I know that once I switched from my old grease groove alloy of 20-1 to an alloy that is at a 16-1 hardness or just a bit harder my groups shrank and my scores went up. Kurt's .8-15.2-18.0 alloy is working very well for me this year. (.8 oz. antimony - 15.2 oz. tin - 18.0 lbs. lead)

Chris, it sounds like you did well and you can build on that and take the next step forward. Stay with it and winning will come, you're close enough now to see that. That was the tallest hill to for me to climb, realizing that I could win. The next hill was getting out of my own way and allowing it to happen. Relax, breathe, and stay focused. That can be easier said than done.

The paper I use is no longer made, The Paper Mill 9# 100% cotton onion skin, but lucky for me I was able to obtain a lifetime supply.

RPRNY, use what works for you. I think that's the first rule. The others rules depend on a lot of variables. I guess the part I can't seem to understand is how a bullet over bore diameter but under groove diameter shoots accurately when seated at or just off the rifling and is seated down in a case that is too big. Seem like a whole set of bad situations have to come together to make it work. I'm glad it's working for you.

JK1

[Distant Thunder]

Brent,

Yea, Glenn and Tony and I were a hard team to beat. We sure had our day in the sun and it lasted for few years! I miss those days, but I am enjoying these days too, different times, different people, same good stuff. I'm hoping JK2 can pull off a win soon. He came close on Mother's Day, we just gave you a little too much of a lead the first day and he couldn't catch you. He shot very well on Sunday, but it's a two-day match! We'll give it a go again in September. You better be on your game!

[BrentD]

You better come and practice during the matches in June then. Did you see that last email I sent you?

[Lead pot]

There you go Jim giving away my secret alloy mix. At age 77 I'm a short timer at this game to reach the level of you hard holders and now it will be tougher to make gains with others using my secret mix.

[RPRNY]

RPRNY, use what works for you. I think that's the first rule. The others rules depend on a lot of variables. I guess the part I can't seem to understand is how a bullet over bore diameter but under groove diameter shoots accurately when seated at or just off the rifling and is seated down in a case that is too big. Seem like a whole set of bad situations have to come together to make it work. I'm glad it's working for you.

Just to clarify, I am not suggesting that the boolit be larger than bore size, only then, when patched, the final diameter should exceed bore diameter. If I hadn't been clear on that or my meaning was misunderstood, my apologies. If I misunderstood that folks were only suggesting the lead bullet itself need be to bore and recognized that final patched diameter need exceed that, my apologies as well. That seemed to be the issue.

[Distant Thunder]

Brent,

Saw the emails and I wish things were different, but they just are not.

Kurt,

I'm sorry, I didn't know it was a secret! If there is such a thing in these days of the internet and smartphones. I won't mention it again. But thanks for sharing it with me!

RPRNY,

I think I'll just leave it there rather than clarify what I was saying. That way we can stay on speaking terms and maybe some day revisit the subject. For now I'll let it rest.

JK1

[BrentD]

Here is a photo from James Grant's first book, "The Singleshot Rifle". This photo is worth the price of the book alone. These are original Sharps cartridges.

Imagine inserting all of these in your chamber if the bullets were wrapped to 0.002" or more over land diameter. Your thumb would be sprained by the second shot (been there, done that).

[Distant Thunder]

Moving forward in this discussion, when I wasn't busy posting about paper patched bullets today I was shooting some.

I shot 3 different bullets today all from my .45-70 Hepburn at 200m, all patched to bore diameter and loaded over 83.0 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 with a .060 LDPE wad and Remington 2 1/2 primers. This is my match load in this rifle. All were seated .125" into the case.

The purpose today was two fold, first to adjust my setup to be as well organized as I can be for the up coming American Creedmoor Cup match at Lodi, Wisconsin. The format, if you don't know, calls for a maximum of 3 sighters and 10 shots for record in 20 minutes with no coaching once you cut paper at 800, 900, and 1000 yards. It is a two-day match with each distance being fired once on each day. I was concerned about only 20 minutes for the 13 shots leaving little opportunity to wait on a condition and shooting paper patched bullets needing to wipe twice between shots. There will only be just over 1.5 minutes per shot.

I also wanted to test two bullets sent to me by a good friend of the long range muzzle loader persuasion, Ray Hopkins. Hoppy sent me 20 bullets to test, all identical except 10 were flat base and 10 were cupped base. I have really not had the best results with cupped base bullets, so this was a chance to see if these were any different than other cupped base bullets I had tried.

I shot my usual paper patched bullets first, two sighters (that's all I had loaded) and 10 to see just how much time it took me to look through my spotting scope, get in the rifle, center things up, break a shot, roll back to the scope (in theory to check the conditions and watch for any miss) then wipe with one wet patch & one dry patch, load the next cartridge and repeat.

Right out of the gate I found I had chosen the wrong front aperture, it was too small making the bullseyes very hard for me to see clearly. I knew I wasn't breaking good shots and it showed on the target (MR-52C, 600 yard reduced for 200). The end result was a 9-shot group that was, with the exception of one really bad break to the left, 3" wide and just under 3 3/4" high. I still had 5 minutes on the timer when I finished. I could have easily changed out the aperture and shot a better group.

I then changed my front aperture up one notch. Much better.

Next I shot the flat based version the Hoppy sent. No sighters with only ten cartridges. The first shot was an 8 at 2 o'clock. Allowing for the clean barrel first shot tending to be high I corrected 1 minute left. The next nine shots went into 3" ctc. with 5 10s and 4 Xs. That looked better. I still left 5 minutes on the timer. I'm not worried, I'm sure the 5 minutes will be used up in the actual match trying to read the conditions and make the right adjustments between each shot.

Next up, the cupped base bullets. Again these were the same as the flat based bullets Hoppy sent except for the cup. I expected the first bullet to be 1 1/2 minutes high through the clean barrel and adjusted for that. Wrong! It went 2 1/2 minutes low. That is including my 1 1/2 minute down adjustment. I came up 1 1/2 and the next was an X at 7 o'clock. From there it went bad, and it became clear that there was no accounting for the vertical. I quit turning the elevation knob half way through. The last 9 shots ended up at 3" wide and a bit over 5" high. Nope, don't like those cupped base bullets!

In the end I decided the mechanics of shooting 13 shots in 20 minutes are very doable. Keeping up with condition changes and ahead of any snafus will be the challenge. A miss and all bets go out the window unless you're able to get in the scope and see it through the smoke. Best not to miss!

I really have no idea why the cupped base bullets had more vertical in them, but that would be a real killer at 1000 yards when your vertical struggles to hold the 8-ring at 200. That's a bit scary!

Any experience or thoughts on cupped vs. flat?

JK1

[Distant Thunder]

Brent,

I'm sure the more deeply seated paper patched bullets are either for military use or hunting. The ones seated out would be for the target range. Correct?

JK1

[BrentD]

Brent,

I'm sure the more deeply seated paper patched bullets are either for military use or hunting. The ones seated out would be for the target range. Correct?

JK1

Exactly. I would like to know the diameters of the hunting bullets.

[BrentD]

Any experience or thoughts on cupped vs. flat?

JK1

Back in the day, I had a Corbin Swaging press - actually I had two of them, one from each Corbin - I decided to test for cupped bases. The swaging dies had multiple base punches that would allow me to make flat, cupped, and then a radical rebated boattail.

Using the first two punches, I made clones of the original Sharps Long range bullet and shot them side by side loaded identically. I could not find any difference whatsoever in accuracy. I don't find them worth the trouble. The cup by the way was about 0.050 deep and left a nice strong rim around the outer edge of the base so they were not prone to blowing out.