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Thread: 9.3x72R

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy
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    9.3x72R

    Hi I've just been given an opportunity to buy a 9.3x72R Drilling with the Lyman 366408 mould. I know very little about this calibre and wonder if anyone has any pet loads with this mould.

  2. #2
    Boolit Man Cheshire Dave's Avatar
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    I have some info from when I was looking at drillings. This is not first hand I just saved it. Be careful. The 9.3 is a low ppressure round about as powerfull as a 35 Rem. The 9.3x74 is much more powerfull. If interested PM me a email and I'll send more. I know they aren't for your cast bullet but might be helpful. I don't think you can go wrong with 3031.

    These are from “The Accurate Rifle” magazine, issue vol6 #9, Oct. 2003.

    Powder Charge Bullet Velocity Group Size
    IMR 3031 41.0gr RWS 200gr N/A 1”
    N-201 44.5gr RWS 200gr N/A 1”
    N-201 45.5gr RWS 200gr N/A 1 3/16”
    IMR 3031 32.0gr Speer 250 1964 1 ¼”
    IMR 3031 30.0gr Cast 251 F.N. N/A 2 ¾”
    IMR 3031 39.0gr RWS 200 2227 3 1/8”
    H-4895 39.0gr RWS 200 2165 2 5/8”
    IMR 4064 40.0 RWS 200 2227 3 1/8”
    IMR 3031 35.0gr Norma 232 1839 2 ¾”
    IMR 3031 38.0gr Speer 250 2073 2 7/8”
    H-4895 38.0gr Speer 250 2047 2 5/8”
    IMR 4064 40.0gr Speer 250 2094 2”
    IMR 3031 34.0gr Speer 270 1873 3”
    H-4895 35.0gr Speer 270 1746 2 1/8”
    IMR 4064 37.0gr Speer 270 1861 2”
    IMR 3031 29.0gr Norma 286 1525 2 3/8”
    H-4895 33.0gr Norma 286 1742 3 3/8”
    IMR 4064 34.0gr Norma 286 1704 2 3/8”
    IMR 3031 36.0gr RWS 200 2010 1 ½”
    H-4895 34.0gr RWS 200 1976 1 ¼”
    IMR 4895 36.0gr RWS 200 1865 2 3/8”
    IMR 4064 38.0gr RWS 200 2771 5/8

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Hubertus's Avatar
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    cr17, that’s going to be an interesting project.
    If you don’t mind, do you have some details about the Drilling like manufacturer, the year of manufacture and the lock system? Did you already have the chance to take it into your own hands? Would be nice to see some pics, too. There is an easy test to find out whether it is still tight or needs some work (most probably you know this already). If the Drilling has the opening lever on the tang (there are under lever systems too) first thing to look for is to break it open and then close it without touching the opening lever. If the opening lever is not fully going to middle position but staying a little to the side that is a good sign. Check the load status (obvious); when empty close the gun remove the forearm of the stock by lifting the latch rest the butt of the Drilling on your thigh and take a double hand grip around the tang behind the trigger guard, like you would want to strangle it. Then move your arms and hands back and forth quickly – “shaking” the gun. If you feel the barrel wiggle back and forth the system is not so tight anymore you may want to have a gunsmith have a look at it. But again you may know this already.

    About the cartridge: It is a member of a cartridge family developed in the 1890ies in Germany. The mother cartridge was the now forgotten 9,3x82RTeutsch. Several shorter versions were available down to 9,3x48R among them the 9,3x72R which is the only one that survived until today. These days factory ammunition can still be bought. The cartridge was very well liked and spread among the foresters (forest rangers) of the time. The German nickname “Foersterpatrone” (Forester cartridge) goes back to this.
    Originally it was developed and designed for the use of Black Powder. But after the turn of the century it was normalized and as well loaded with smokeless. Several original factory loadings had been available.
    Prior to 1945 factory ammunition loaded with 3,2 gram BP (~49.4 grains) and a 14,7 gram (227 grain) lead projectile was available with a muzzle velocity of around 1450 fps.
    Subsequent factory ammunition was available with 12,5 gram (193 grain) and 13 gram (200 grain) copper jacketed bullets. The former as FP the latter as SP with about 2010 fps and the 200 grain with 2250 fps all loaded with R5 powder. The 200 grain loading was supposed to be a +P as we would call it today and only for suitable rifles it was known as the “Dornheim-Patrone” (Dornheim cartridge). The intent was a usage for bigger game.

    The 9,3x72R is not as powerful as the 9,3x74R as written by Cheshire Dave ealready. One has to be very careful not to overload it especially with the break open design and the possible age of a fine Drilling. The CIP max pressure is set to 2000 bar (29000 PSI). I know in the US you are not bound by this but it usually gives a good direction. It is a very good deer cartridge for distances out to 120 meters.

    The nominal bullet diameter is .364” so your .366” should be fine. You will most probably slug the bore anyway. By the way what caliber are the shotgun barrels? I suppose 16 GA. That was quite a standard chambering.

    I do have some loads from a German load book with the powders like N540, N140, SR4759, IMR3031, N550 as well as a single load with sporting black powder No1 (ffg).

    Let me know whether you are interested.
    Best regards,
    Hubertus

  4. #4
    Boolit Mold
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    8.7x72r

    Just found this thread while looking for information about my 8.7x72R Drilling.
    It is a Hubertus under lever gun 16x16x8.7x72R, made about 1920 and Nitro proofed.
    I just made some cases for it this afternoon from 9.3x72R RWS brass.
    The case is basically the same as the 9.3x72R except has slightly more taper and user a smaller diameter bullet. The bore measures .356.
    I have had this gun for many years and just last week fired it for the first time.
    I used .357 160 grain bullets and 9 grains of Unique powder.
    Am interested in what the original load was for this gun.
    Paul

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Hubertus's Avatar
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    PFJC, that is an interesting critter you have there. I read about it once but looking into the C.I.P tables left me puzzled – it looks like it is not standardized.
    When you say the “bore” measures .356” do you really mean the bore or rather the groove diameter? Looking at the data of the 9x57R this would be rather the groove diameter.

    I was able to find data for 7x72R and 8x72R. But it really looks you have a 9x72R aka 8,7x72/.360 there, since the original designation of the 8x72R was 8,1x72/.360 showing that this cartridge was developed from the .360 Express like many others.
    One of my friends has an old ammunition catalogue and he promised he will have a look as soon as time permits.

    The original loadings of the 8x72R are between 11,5 gram (178 grains) hard lead bullet, 12,7 gram (196 grains) JFP and 13,4 gram (207 grains) Brenneke TIG.
    The velocities for the 12,7 and the 13,4 gram with 665 m/s (2181fps) and 700 m/s (2296fps).

    Hubertus

  6. #6
    Boolit Mold
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    Hubertus,
    The barrel slugs .356 groove to groove and I used 162 grain .357 cast bullets.
    The barrel is clearly marked 8.7x72R and is Nitro proofed.
    A 9.3x72R case, neck sized with a .357 Magnum die, and with about .003 Inch more taper added to the forward part of it fits. The 72mm. length is correct.
    This has been an interesting challenge.
    Thanks for your help.
    Paul

  7. #7
    Boolit Man
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    Shooting a 9.3x72r

    PFJC & CR17.

    Thought you might like some of my actual experiences in shooting one of these wonderful rifles.

    Waaaay back in 2000, I ran across one in 16x16x9.3x72r. Nicely done with some privately made up claw scope mounts.

    The 9.3 was used with some Liberty cast bullets (215 gr round nose I think - a now defunct company). Velocity was around 2100 fps.

    Accuracy. The horizontal stringing was about 3/4" at 100 yards off a bench. Nice and tight. Vertical stringing? Well as the 2x 16 guage barrels acted as 'heat sinks', the lower half of the 9.3 barrel lenghtened while the upper didn't, giving me 3" higher bullet strike on target with the second shot, 6" with the 3rd, 9+" with the fourth .... Fantastic if the deer runs away from you in a straight line. Very reproducable. Time after time. Slow fire, quick fire, no matter.

    Now off hand. 2 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards. The rifle did account for 2 NW blacktail over the 2 years I had it. A nice light, woods-kicking easy-carry rifle with 3 shots. 3? Well .... I carried 1x 16 gauge buckshot, 1x 16 guage slug, and 1x 9.3x72r loaded.

    Worked for me.

    Time and interests moved the rifle on.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master Hubertus's Avatar
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    Sojerguy, good on you - that is definitely on my to do list. The problem is that there are always other projects in the way. But I promise when I get upon a decent 9,3x72R for a reasonable price it will be all mine.

    PFJC, that is really interesting and don't you love it when a plan works out.
    How does it shoot? The phenomenon that sojerguy described goes by the German term "Klettern" (climbing) that is common to all fixed multibarrel combination guns. With the newer Drillings and Over/Unders the barrels are not soldered together to prevent this.
    Well in terms of help I wasn't a great help so far because I didn't find anything of much use. If you ever want to develop hunting loads I would go the 9,3x72R route meaning to follow the loading recommendations of that because the max pressure is set lower than for the 8x72R. Given, of course, you find heavier boolits, plus I would reduce the load by 3% due to the lower case volume. I couldn't let this rest and called the Merkel company yesterday, they gave me a number of a conservator of the Hunting Weapons Museum located in Suhl. Called him up today and he told me he might be able to find something but would need more info. There must be some more stampings around the underlever and the Bascule and under the barrels. If you could white them with chalk and make a photo to send to me I will forward it and we'll see what he can find out.
    He told me usually the barrel maker would have had a marking, too. The stampings of the proofhouse are important, as well. So whatever markings make a photo and send it. You can contact via PM and I will give you my email address, in case you are interested.

    The same goes for cr17, actually I have scanned the load data for the 9,3x72R, just need an email to send to - don't want to put it on the forum because of copy rights.


    Hubertus

  9. #9
    Boolit Mold
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    Didn't check for accuracy, too much snow and ice to set up targets. Just fired downrange to check functioning.
    Hubertus, I just sent you a PM with my email. Forgot to tell you I slugged the barrel again.
    Bore diameter is .346 and groove diameter is 356.
    Paul

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Hubertus's Avatar
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    PFJC, email sent.

    Hubertus

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy
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    Hubertus : PM sent,.

    Here are some photos of the drilling.

    http://s810.photobucket.com/albums/z...hoto/?newest=1

    Any info would be greatly appreciated.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    AkMike's Avatar
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    Hubertus,
    I also have a rifle this cailiber but mine had Black Powder Austrian Proof marks. Do you have any SAFE loads for a BP proofed rifle, hopefully using an IMR powder. I'm currently working up using 30 grns of IMR 3031. Way slow but being safe bwith the old girl.
    Last edited by AkMike; 04-03-2011 at 04:59 PM.
    If Obummer is the answer, How stupid was the question?


    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. -----Ronald Reagan

  13. #13
    Boolit Master Hubertus's Avatar
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    Currently I am travelling for work. I will be back Friday or Saturday.

    As soon as I am home I will have a look for the data, AkMike, but to my knowledge there is not much about BP save SP loads in my books, but still I will have a look and let you know.

    cr17 and PJFC - I will try to get the info and get back to you.

    Best
    Hubertus

  14. #14
    Boolit Master Hubertus's Avatar
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    BP safe loads

    AkMike,

    I had a look into my books and there is not much, unfortunately.
    Do you have access to BP or BP substitute?
    That might be the way to go - I know it sounds cheesy but I would feel better shooting BP in a rifle made for BP loads. That way you can be sure you are not overstressing it.

    The CIP specs for Nitro proofed rifles list 2000 bar or 29000 PSI as max pressure.
    That is definitely to hot for an old BP proofed rifle.
    My tables list a BP load with ffg yielding a pressure of 1056 bar or 15316 PSI with a 193 grain jacketed bullet. It would be interesting to know what boolit or boolits you intent to shoot out of your DR, which is by the way a real beauty.
    The 9,3x72R is comparable to the .38-55 but has a higher case volume.
    Lyman 48th says with a 249gr #2 Alloy Lyman #375248 boolit you will have 17000 CUP in the .38-55 with 31 grains of IMR3031.
    Given the higher case volume of the 9,3 and depending on your boolit weight that would be the hottest I would go (comparing it to the ffg load of my load book). So with your 30 grains (given the same boolit weight) you are right on the spot.

    Again this is not proven data just making conclusions from available data with BP in the 9,3x72R in comparison to data of the .38-55!
    I will ask some friends that might have older German load books.

    Use caution and common sense as always when venturing into new loadings.
    If I were in your shoes and had BP on hand I would use that.

    Hope that helps,
    Hubertus

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
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    Every little bit is a great help Hubertus! Reliable information is hard to get on this side of the pond about the older Euro calibers.
    I have another one similat that is the same caliber BUT the case appears to be a 2 step taper and not the straight one of the 'newer' standardized 9.3X72R.

    Danka!
    Last edited by AkMike; 02-21-2010 at 04:11 PM.
    If Obummer is the answer, How stupid was the question?


    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. -----Ronald Reagan

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Hubertus's Avatar
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    Still no news on the Drillings

    Sorry guys it might take a while to get the info.

    AkMike, as you describe it that should be a 9,3x72R S&S (S&S stands for Sauer & Sohn). I don't have any load data for that but the general consensus is that is up to the same fodder as the 9,3x72R. Please use caution as always! If it is BP proofed stay in the pressure limits.

    I'll let you know when I get data and info.

    Hubertus

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
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    The few factory rounds I have will not chamber. They lack about 3/8 of an inch of seating completely. None of my new resized brass will fit. I suspect that there is a very old cartridge that had a 2 step taper for the sides. There were alot of old 'wildcats', propriatary rounds made by the shops for their rifles.
    If Obummer is the answer, How stupid was the question?


    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. -----Ronald Reagan

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    I looked up the S&S 9.3X72R and this is not the cartridge. It has a bigger rim and base than what I have. This appears to be the same measurments as the standard X72 with a change in the straight taper of the sides.
    I'd guess it was a 'wildcat' properitary round made by the smith. I think I read that there was a meeting around 1906 to standardize the measurements of the rounds.
    If Obummer is the answer, How stupid was the question?


    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. -----Ronald Reagan

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    Mike - any chance of a photo? I have the DWM guide and may be able to find a match - or a photo of the markings on the underside of the barrels? Sometimes they will have valuable clues. Other than that I highly recommend the guys over on the doubleguns forum, a wealth of knowledge on the doubles there.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Does this DWM list show the measurements? I've seen one that gave the DWM number for the cartridge only.
    The rifle is marked on the top rib, M. Ogris in Ferlach.
    on the RH tube it shows 9.3 854
    On the LH tube it shows a faint circle with a X with 9.3 and 468
    On the bottom rib it shows 6334.01.3.85
    At the bottom of the breech under the chambers it sows 99901.01 It seems to have a double stamp on the second 9. They are very close together. Then there are the proof marks.
    Nothing on the watertable or under the forearm. This is a very high quality rifle with both triggers able to set triggers.
    I'll try to find my camera for some pics but I doubt the quality.
    It also has some very unsual QD scope base mounts with the rear looking similar to the shape of a lyre harp. Alas nothing for the scope or rings.
    If Obummer is the answer, How stupid was the question?


    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free. -----Ronald Reagan

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check