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Thread: Mihec HG #503 Cramer hollow point

  1. #61
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Blammer;
    It looks to me like you have a "working combination"!! Good shooting, too!

    Dale53

  2. #62
    Boolit Buddy
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    No one asked my opinion, but I have been thru learning to shoot handguns that can recoil and have been shooting 41 Magnum since the mid-60's abd 44 mag since the mid 70's. And have also introduced several folks to shooting these well. Learn to enjoy boolit casting and buy a 8 pound keg of Herco. Work up a load your gun likes of 900 to 1000 fps with your favorite boolit and use this as your go to load for that first keg of powder. Also work up a load that goes ker-bleeping- boom and shoot some of those each time you shoot a bunch of the normal loads. Just for grins load the cylinder with some of each and a couple of emptys and spin the cylinder before shooting them...do this a couple of times each time you take the gun out shooting. You are going to have a lot of fun learning to shoot that gun very well. I have never had a 44 with that short of a barrel. Most of mine have had at least a 4.5 inch barrel or longer. My favorite 41 and 44 Redhawks had 5.5 inch barrels.

    Have fun with this stuff.

    Big Dale

  3. #63
    Boolit Master
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    I did some testing today with the small an large H.P. bullets
    Gun Ruger R.H. 7.5" barrel, Red dot Ultradot
    44mag cases
    15.3 gr. 2400
    Fed LP Primers
    Mihec's 503 Cramer Lg. cav. 246 gr.
    50/50 Clipon WW / Stickon WW
    All shooting was off of bags
    I know a lot of you wouldn't think twice about my groups but i am very pleased. Ive never shot a Mag till last fall. The thing that pleases me most i made the boolits an reloaded everything.
    Pictures are of groups were at 25 and 50 yards.
    The spent bullets were shot into filled milk jugs at 25 yards. 1 bullet stooped in the 4th jug, the 2 others went through 5 an didn't penetrate the 6th
    I was kind of disappointed in the small weight retention of the bullets. Next time I'm going to 75/25 to see if the bullets retain any more weight. Then i go to the small cavity H.P. The bullets retained 155 / 144 / an 146 grains
    Its hard to believe when i started casting all i wanted to do is shoot for less. Now I'm keeping records an looking to the future experiments.
    Kevin

  4. #64
    Boolit Master
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    Here are the pictures i forgot to put with my comments
    Attachment 23109

    Attachment 23110

    Attachment 23111

    Attachment 23112
    Last edited by kbstenberg; 01-01-2011 at 08:39 PM.

  5. #65
    Boolit Master



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    I didn't see any pictures but I suggest that you put a couple of ounces of tin for each 10 lbs in your alloy)even if you have to use lead-free-solder). Tin will make your boolit a little more togher and as a result allow it to rip into some of the most difficult material and stay together. I shot some HP .45 at 840 fps into a wet sand berm and they lost 0-2 gr.

    EW

    Okay; now I see your pictures.

  6. #66
    Boolit Master
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    Well tonight was 2 steps forward an half a step back.
    Ruger R.H. 7.5" barrel Red dot Ultra
    44mag cases
    Fed L.P.P.
    15.3gr. 2400
    503 solid 50WW/50soft A.C.
    Accuracy was as good as with the H.P. average 1.5" range was 25yards
    I shot 2 rounds into water jugs. First round into 6 = 1gallon jugs , no caps. it went all the way through all 6 an then half the bullet went into the backup log. It had no expansion at all.
    Second round i used 4 of the large cat litter jugs. Not the heavy pails but the thinner jugs. My thought was more water an resistance. What was that about the best laid plans. Bullet still went totally through the jugs an into the backup log. No expansion. My next test with the solid i will have to try 25WW/75 soft. hopefully i don't get leading.
    I still can't understand how you guys can stand a steady diet of 16+ grains of 2400. For me 16 gr. is uncomfortable to shoot.
    Could someone give me an estimate of FPS of a 16gr. load of 2400? Please
    Kevin

  7. #67
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    Kevin;
    I have never loaded 2400 that light in a .44 Magnum. The standard Keith load was 22.0 grs. of "old" 2400 (it is believed by many that the "new" 2400 is somewhat faster burning than the old). However, the new Lyman Reloading Handbook (49th Edition) shows a maximum of 20.6 with pressure of 37,300 C.U.P. with a velocity of 1248 fps in a 4" barrel. The starting load is 18.0 grs of 2400 for 30,300 C.U.P. and a velocity of 1087.

    If you are going to shoot medium loads in the .44 Magnum I would suggest a "medium" burning powder such as Unique (the old standard) or Hodgdon's Universal. You'll get cleaner burning and more consistent results.

    Now, to the "shattering" of the hollow point bullet. There are three things you need to manage to control expansion:
    1 - Alloy make up
    2 - Velocity
    3 - The size of the hollow point.

    The best information I have read on the various properties of cast hollow point bullets will be found in Glen Fryxell's series of articles:

    http://www.lasc.us/ArticlesFryxell.htm

    Cast hollow point bullets can be as good or better than jacketed bullets. However, they have to be "managed" carefully. That includes ALL of the three things I have mentioned.

    Self defense properties with a revolver seem to be best served by a number of things including a velocity of 800-1000 fps and a "medium for the caliber" bullet weight (both to limit recoil to practical limits so rapid follow up shots can be made) and many consider it VERY desirable to have a rapid expanding bullet to do maximum damage and limit penetration. We don't want to shoot through any number of walls and put our neighbors in danger.

    Human targets are relatively "thin" because we stand on our "hind legs". Rapidly expanding bullets are an answer here.

    Animals are on all four legs and require much greater penetration. Hence, a more controlled expansion (or with a good, flat meplat, NO EXPANSION is sometimes desired).

    With the MiHec Cramer Style bullet mould, two different size pins have been furnished. The large for self defense at moderate velocities and the smaller one for deeper penetration.

    Neither of these will do as we wish unless you have a proper alloy. Elmer Keith liked the alloy of 20/1 lead/tin. Glen Fryxell recommends WW's/lead + 2% tin 50/50 +2% tin for moderate velocities and 80/20+2% tin for higher velocities(with the smaller hollow point).

    Further, on large and or DANGEROUS game, a hard cast semi-wadcutter solid is a better answer as deep penetration is not only desired but NEEDED.

    You are running experiments and have results - the shattered points are excellent for varmint use and probably would also work well for self defense. However, for self defense I would prefer a softer but particularly "more malleable" bullet - the addition of 2% tin will help here. Antimony bearing alloys can be brittle and cause the shattering effect you have seen. Tin helps greatly in this regard.

    Some here have done just this and had excellent results by their pictures showing .45 Caliber bullets expanding to .80 Caliber.

    Glen pointed out something else (pictures are nice for showing how the bullet looks AFTER it is recovered, but it may not show what it is doing "inside the animal") and we mustn't lose sight of the fact that what it does INSIDE is what REALLY counts. That comes with real field experience.

    And finally, shot placement has a lot to do with effectiveness of ANY bullet.

    Dale53

  8. #68
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by kbstenberg View Post
    I did some testing today with the small an large H.P. bullets
    Gun Ruger R.H. 7.5" barrel, Red dot Ultradot
    44mag cases
    15.3 gr. 2400
    Fed LP Primers
    Mihec's 503 Cramer Lg. cav. 246 gr.
    50/50 Clipon WW / Stickon WW
    All shooting was off of bags
    I know a lot of you wouldn't think twice about my groups but i am very pleased. Ive never shot a Mag till last fall. The thing that pleases me most i made the boolits an reloaded everything.
    Pictures are of groups were at 25 and 50 yards.
    The spent bullets were shot into filled milk jugs at 25 yards. 1 bullet stooped in the 4th jug, the 2 others went through 5 an didn't penetrate the 6th
    I was kind of disappointed in the small weight retention of the bullets. Next time I'm going to 75/25 to see if the bullets retain any more weight. Then i go to the small cavity H.P. The bullets retained 155 / 144 / an 146 grains
    Its hard to believe when i started casting all i wanted to do is shoot for less. Now I'm keeping records an looking to the future experiments.
    Kevin
    Kevin, did you water drop these boolits? I am having a hard time believing that 50/50 would be that hard. I have used the same mix of alloy and the boolits came out as 9BHN. They do expand and they do retain their weight, even when dug out of the damp sand berm. I did add about 4 oz of lead free solder (actually 96% tin).

    I have not loaded 15.3 of 2400. The lowest that I've taken it is 17.5. If you want lower velocity, try Unique. I don't recall, nor do I have my data handy, but I'll bet that 17.5 gr does not exceed 1,000 fps with 200 gr boolits. You could check the Alliant web site. I've gone down to 7 grains with Unique, it gives good accuracy in the 10-10.5 range.

    I've also used this same alloy in the .45 version of the MP/HP boolits. I feel that the 850 fps is great with the pentagonal pins. I've never shot any of these into water but I can imagine that they would hold 95% of their weight and be over .75" in diameter because the 9mm MP/HP does that through 3 gallon jugs and bangs the back wall of the fourth.

    EW

    P.S. Is it possible that you have integrated some zinc into your casting lead? I smelt at as low of temp as possible and scoop out the floaters as soon as I see them.
    Last edited by Edubya; 06-28-2010 at 07:57 PM. Reason: P.S. added

  9. #69
    Boolit Grand Master



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    Kevin;
    I went back and carefully re-read your original post. You mentioned that the bullets penetrated 4-5 milk jugs filled with water. They certainly penetrated enough for a large whitetail deer. Water is rather hard on hollow points.

    It would be interesting to know the size of the exit holes in each of the jugs (1-5). Remember, it's what happens "inside" that counts. Not how the bullets look AFTER.

    Just a thought or two...

    Dale53

  10. #70
    Boolit Master

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    In post # 57 I show some water results, not hot loads, but shot out of a 20" bbl rifle.
    John 3: 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

  11. #71
    Boolit Master
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    You Guyes must be tired of me by now. Today i was shooting again,
    Ruger RH 7.5" barrel, Red dot ultra dot.
    44 mag casses
    Fed LPP
    The first load was 7.5gr. Unique, 503 Cramer Lg Hp, 20to1 alloy, shot into wet newspaper. Both rounds penatrated to 10". One bullet retained 163gr,an measured .676 by .605. The other bullet weighd185.5gr and measured .650 by .511. Im hopping if i reduce the load just a little i will retain more weight.
    The other loads i tested were the 503 Lg Hp useing 50%WW an 50% soft with a BHN of 14. My load was 18gr/2400. Both recovered bullets still lost there noses at the grease grove. They weighed 163.4gr and 133gr both started at 249gr.
    Now for the good news with the 503 solid with the 50/50 mix at a BHN of 13 an the same 18gr. load. All 5 bullets penatrated to 18" an kept 252.9 an 255grains of weight. They started at 258gr. The other 2 ullets had a BHN of 18 an retained 254 aand 252 gr of weight. An all bullets expanded slitly. So i am very happey with how they turned out
    Sorrie no pictures wife is out of town
    Kevin

  12. #72
    Boolit Master

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    For hunting I want all my lead in on place, mushrooming is fine, (I don't want to play hide and seek in my dinner!) but in self defense as long as they tear up stuff along the way . . . the lead does not vaporize, but that pentagon hp is gonna be the easiest to shed weight, the smallest hp should stay together, and expand some . . .

    BTW Hornady's third ed lists 11.7gr - 14.4gr of 2400 or 240gr lswc = 800-1000fps.
    Unique is 6.7gr - 8.5gr = 800-1000fps

    If you drop to special loadings (smaller case) it is 4.7gr - 6.4gr Unique = 650-800fps
    Last edited by Three-Fifty-Seven; 04-05-2011 at 09:54 PM. Reason: typo
    John 3: 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

  13. #73
    Boolit Master
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    Back from the dead for the new production run now being delivered.

  14. #74
    Boolit Buddy
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    How many runs of the MP 503 have been run. I was just curious about how many molds are in use for this one.

  15. #75
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    Looks like maybe 100 for the first run in 2010, 40 or so for the second run in 2011, 40 from the most recent 2013 run. I'm not sure if there were any other runs.
    Last edited by Oreo; 11-01-2013 at 11:42 PM.

  16. #76
    Boolit Master super6's Avatar
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    Received mine 11-1-13. Does anybody really expect me to pour lead on this truly artful piece of work! Wish I had one for each of the calibers I own, Thanks to those that made the buy possible.
    Give me something to believe in. Poison
    Arosmith What it takes
    A 12 step program

  17. #77
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    Some people like to preserve the original beauty of their safe queens and some people like to shoot the pretty guns. Neither are wrong but I'm betting we all bought these molds to do work. Now quit screwing around and start making boolits!

  18. #78
    Boolit Master
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    Just watin........
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

  19. #79
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    Received mine today. Another high quality tool in the mold line-up. Can't wait to put it into service.

  20. #80
    Boolit Master
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    I hope this isn't like engine building, I got way too many parts.

    The Penta Pin looks great! Nice selection of pins.

    The 2mm Hex Wrench is 2mm. Miha does read our posts.

    Do I really need to work tomorrow? Might be some sort of casting emergency instead.......
    Mal

    Mal Paso means Bad Pass, just so you know.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check