Clays in the .45 ACP

[35remington]

I've wondered that myself. Perhaps something happens with the performance of Clays that Hodgdon gave it a lower maximum charge.

By the data, Clays is considerably faster than Bullseye.....and in my own results in metallics. For example, 4 grains Clays gets about 750 fps with a 230 lead bullet of the Lee 2R persuasion. Bullseye is nowhere close to that with the same charge. Clays works out to be about a slight tick faster than Red Dot, which therefore begs the question, why doesn't it have the higher velocities that Red Dot is allowed in the 45 ACP?

Lyman goes to 4.3 grains Clays with the 452374 roundnose for a claimed 818 fps, so this is low end ball velocity and could be considered standard power duplication. Hornady has printed data for Clays that exceeds Hodgdon's data with the lighter bullets.

Clays is a fine niche powder; but due to the lack of higher velocity performance in sanctioned loads (for whatever reason that I certainly don't know about?) Red Dot gets the nod from me over Clays as an all around powder in the 45 ACP for all bullet weights up to 230 grains. Sometimes a single powder in the hopper for the progressive press is an advantage, and I often shoot standard power loads.

If you need less than full power loads, Clays is very fine.

[KYCaster]

MtGun, not arguing, but asking. If the military 230 ball load has been 5.0 Bullseye for a century now, and Clays is either the same or a wee bit slower than Bullseye, why is Clays not suitable for equivalent loads?

Rocky, short answer is...burn rate isn't everything. If it were this hobby would be a whole lot simpler.

For example, Unique and Universal are almost identical in burn rate. At 7, 8,9,and 10 gr charges in 44 mag and 45 Colt you can expect almost identical velocities. The big difference is, Unique's pressure per charge weight ratio is pretty much linear from start loads to well over max. Universal, on the other hand will show pressure spikes at the upper end of its useful range...it's pressure per weight ratio isn't linear at the top end.

Another good example is 2400 vs. W296. Very close in burn rate and very similar applications in magnum handgun cartridges. The big difference is you can't reduce your 296 loads like you can with 2400. Anything less than 90% load density with the ball powder and you risk squib loads.

Speaking of 2400, it's not far from Blue Dot on most burn rate charts and has similiar utility in mid range and magnum handgun loads. But use them in reduced rifle loads and you'll find the Blue Dot is position sensitive and 2400 is not. Blue Dot is also much more sensitive to temperature variations than 2400, especially at the upper end of its pressure range.

And while we're on the subject of temperature...when I first got involved in USPSA competition, Win 452AA was the darling of the 45ACP crowd. When the guys from up north came down this way they found that the loads they had developed up in America's Dairyland didn't make major power factor in the sun belt. As the temp increased 452AA got slower! Win discontinued it and introduced WSL, WST and WSF which are supposed to be more consistant as temp changes.

These are just a few I'm familiar with and there are many more. Burn rate charts can be useful in helping you find powders that may be suitable for the cartridge you have in mind or for suggesting an application for a particular powder you have on hand, but that's pretty much the limit of their utility...the first step in your research.

Jerry

[Rocky Raab]

I'm not exactly a newcomer to reloading, Jerry, and I respectfully disagree with a few of your well-spoken comments.

For example, I quite often find the reverse with regards to Unique/Universal. Universal is less likely to pressure spike at the top end - at least in my findings.

No argument with the 296 versus 2400 regarding load reduction, or with some powders acting oddly with temperature changes. True.

I find the whole position-sensitivity argument amusing. There can be an effect if one deliberately manipulates a gun to change the powder orientation, but in normal shooting, the stuff gets jostled enough by the normal working of the gun/action that powder lies as near horizontal as imaginable for 99% of all shots. Moot point.

We may both be correct about Clays. I find that the burn rate of Clays, Bullseye and RedDot can and do swap order at times, possibly depending on case shape and expansion ratio. The 45 ACP is not one of my favorite rounds, so your observations might be more learned than mine. In the 45 Colt, though, there isn't enough difference among them to split hairs over (except that Clays is MUCH cleaner burning).

Great to be discussing such things with a knowledgeable mind.

[KYCaster]

Rocky, I didn't mean to sound pompous or condescending. Considering what I've seen from you in the past, I was a bit surprised to see your post about Clays vs Bullseye. I just saw it as an oppertunity to add my thoughts to this thread.

I don't disagree with anything in your last post. Your comments seem to reinforce my main point, which is....burn rate and other properties of smokeless powders often change depending on the specifics of individual applications.

The fact that your experience doesn't exactly coincide with mine doesn't surprise me at all and should be considered normal when evaluating load data, no matter what the source.

I hope this helps clarify my earlier post. I welcome your comments and/or criticism.

Jerry

[Rocky Raab]

You sounded just fine to me, friend. Hope I did, too.

You are correct, and I only wanted to reinforce the fact that what is true with this load combo in this cartridge may not be so in another. We both said that in different ways - and perhaps one or the other will click with some third party reading this.

[MtGun44]

The issue isn't burn rate, it is pressure. According to Hodgdon's data, Clays reaches max
pressure prior to the velocity equaling the std factory velocity for 230 ball. So, it is not safe
to load Clays up to get full factory velocity with 230 boolits.

Just because the burn rate is similar has essentially nothing to do with the actual pressure
seen at a particular load in a particular caliber. This is why reading the seller's data for
a particular caliber - and at the velocity and bullet or boolit wt that you want to use is absolutely
critical for safety.

The basic idea of "similar burning rate means similar behavior" is fine for selecting a powder
to LOOK UP, but there is very little to be gained except to reduce the number of powders
that you need to look up the loads for. You get a hint from the burn rate charts, but not a
lot more than a hint, really.

Bill

[Rocky Raab]

Bill, one might observe that the rate at which a powder reaches a certain pressure during its burn is in fact its burn rate.

It can indeed change, however. Burn rate tables aren't developed in actual cartridges, so the rankings have to be taken with more than one's daily allowable intake of sodium chloride. Some powders apparently swap burn rates in the SAME cartridge, at different load levels.

The bottom line is that Clays is not exactly equivalent to any other powder, therefore it isn't a direct substitution for any. But within limitations, and with due caution, it might be used in place of another roughly similar powder. In this one very specific example, it can indeed be used in the 45 ACP - but perhaps not in all loads for that cartridge.

(I think we've made a bit much of all this, folks. Let's just agree that safe reloading requires prudent experimentation, with due regard for individual guns and components. Shall we?)

[lead4me]

I learned more about Clays and reloading just by reading your guys discussion, I don't have a "mentor" to call and bounce questions off of. So 90% of what I pick up is from the reloading book and from you shooters that have "been their & done that" The other 10% is from doing it & from what I have seen so far this is close to the enjoyment I get from shooting my Guns. Just adds to the overall satisfaction I get from my hobby.
I am an avid bow hunter & have always made my own arrows, well dipped and crested them cut and installed my own Fetching. Now moving on to reloading I hope to get the same fuzzy feeling as I develop loads & improve my skills with my side arms...Oh god what if this creeps into my rifles too? Lets see more molds, different alloys, making lube this just keeps getting better & better looks like the wife is gonna have to get a job

[BD]

I used clays for light loads for Bullseye for awhile. It's economical and burns clean in light loads, but it's too fast for stiffer loading and in the end I gave it up because the charge was hard to see in the case going past on the Proj-ector. The charges take up so little room that a double charge is hardly noticeable, and a triple charge will still fit.
BD

[Mavrick]

lead4me- I used to load so I could shoot more, now I shoot so I can load more.
All the fast-burning powders tend to spike a little at the top of their pressure-curves. That's because most of them are double-base powders. They are designed to be used in reduced loadings, mostly for recoil-reduction through the use of smaller payloads. ie; when I shot trap, I used a LOT of 700x because it was cleaner than Red Dot(I used an M1100) In my .45Auto, I use a lot of Bullseye, and usually go to a 160gr boolit.
The max-listed loads for Clays are standard .45 loads, but the loads the others are promoting are still at/below +P max. I don't recommend using them because Clays gets erratic at those pressure levels. This is something that can't be verified without pressure equipment, tho'. Slower-burning powders should be used if you want those higher velocities.
Clays, because it is an economical powder, and you have a BUNCH of it can be used very effectively, so "go to it." Keep a CLOSE eye on the OAL, tho' because TL will cause lube to stack up in the die, and push the boolit back further, raising pressures, and in the short .45 case, that can happen quickly.
If you change the alloy of the TC boolit that will change the weight a little, and since you're going to start a little low, there is essentially no difference between the two. The main difference is in the space under the bullet when seated. Just keep track. You'll be paying attention to that as you test the feeding. That's the whole thing of reloading an automatic. You want it to FUNCTION. If you want something more powerful, get a bigger gun.
You'll have fun with the .45...and Clays.
Gene

[swingpress]

Clays is popular with .45 Auto in USPSA because it barely reaches major power factor, the recoil is low, and it tends to be fairly accurate. I used it with 230LRN. The down side is, you're running max loads, making a bunch of smoke, and plating your barrel with the back of your bullet.

When I switched to 200-grain bullets, I found loads that were more accurate than Clays, but at the expense of recoil. I aim for accuracy first, so I'm sticking with WST for now. It's nice that my loads don't smoke or lead as much too.

Titegroup works well for me also. It's very accurate, but in my 625 the accuracy comes at faster speeds than with WST. I'm gaming so WST it is. If I was doing almost anything else, I'd choose Titegroup.