WC846 in .308 & .30-06 for semi-autos?

[MUSTANG]

Very nice Mustang!

The simplest way I found to use 1/4 sheets of TP in my M14 .308/7.62 loads, is to roll the sheet lentghways into a tube slightly smaller than the case neck, then insert just prior to seating the boolit, the TP tube sticks out of the neck slightly and the boolit nicely compresses it against the powder charge while basically filling the entire air space.

My M14 loads went from 8 to 10 moa @ 50 yards (rested), to 1moa consistently. I hope to try new loads in '06 for my Garands soon and will most likely use the "wad" method due to the greater space in the '06 and will most likely go to a magnum primer, first will be M2 equivalent loads with magnum primers and tracers rounds with the bases plugged by hot glue, if I can get WC846 to behave with CCI 34's my loads will be less than 15 cents each : )

Please post your groups Mustang, what rifle will you be testing these loads in?

I'll be initially testing in my M1917; then my 03/A3. Once the bolt actions prove out a good accurate load; I'll migrate into M1Garand (I have 5 of them). Then perhaps on to the M14/M1a1.

I'll post groups when I get useful data (Still running 110 (+) here North of Las Vegas; so waiting on some cooler weather). The "Monsoons" are coming out of Arizona early this year; so maybe I'll get a chance in the next few weeks.

[MUSTANG]

Well it was slightly cooler this morning, so I sucked it up after feeding the horses and moving the irrigation watering and decided to head to the range. By the time I had loaded the jeep with the targets, rifles, and shooting support equipment it was all ready 90 degrees at 0730. Oh well; it was an enjoyable, albeit short morning, where I was able to collect some data on reduced WC846 loads using a Cast Boolit.

Load Data used:

Powder: WC846 - 21 Grains with ¼ sheet of TP (Toilet Paper) filler over the Powder

Primer: CCI 200 Large Rifle

Cast Boolit: Lee 170 RNFP, .014 Aluminum Gas Check, Sized in .311 Lyman Sizing die.

Lube: Carnuba Red



I was surprised by better accuracy than I expected with this Cast Boolit Load. I shot an 8 round 2 ¼” x 3” group from 75 yards off a sand bag rest.

There may be some promise here for further Boolit Load development, when I compare to jacketed where I am getting 1.75" x 1.75", 10 round groups with the Russian 147Gr. Ball at 75 yards from the sand bag using 43.3 Grains WC846.

My Load and Record Data is attached as a Picture. Hopefully it's readable. Click on the thumb nail below to see a larger image on the screen.





Key observations:

1. Ignition was slow; approaching what I experience with my 50Cal Hawken
2. Fairly low velocity, I'll look at increasing powder charge - Which may address #1 above.
3. "Chasing the Bull" is indicated in the shot string; perhaps I'll use a different type Target for next test.


Mustang

[catmandu]

Mustand & JKH,
Sorry for the delay, I've been out of town.

I really enjoyed the How2 posts for the TP. When I first heard you speak of it I was doubtfull, but after your post I feel like "I can do that!"

One question on using TP, I was reading in the NRA American Rifleman archives about using fillers. They reported that Dacron was superior to Cream of Wheat because of its low mass. They felt that under certain rare conditions COW could bulge a barrel or act abrasive due to its greater mass than Dacron.

How do you feel about TP? Limit to 1/4 sheet? I'm learning and not trying to tell you about how to do this. I just want to get a question answered.

Mustang - What program did you use to collect the log data you posted?

Thanks again,

Paul in WNY

[JKH]

Hey Paul,

I cant speak on COW having not tried it yet, I was going to use it to fire form .303 British cases in my .410, I have seen it mentioned a good number of times hear as a filler so a search should answer most of you questions.

As far as TP, it shreds and partially burns upon firing, depending on powder and load you may fine few scraps, or it will look like confetti : ) To my knowledge there is no danger in its use. Dacron in a roughly 3/4 grain tuft shoved in the case to fill the airspace works well, there has been evidence.that if it, or similar Kapok, is packed into a tight wad it can cause chamber rings. I have had equal fortune using dacron or TP in my .308 M14 loads but find using the TP rolled up as described being much simpler, and more consistent, plucking and weighing tiny tufts of Dacron is a pain !

Jeff

[MUSTANG]

Catmandu:

There are numerous shooters on this and other Forum's that warn to NOT Use COW (Cream of Wheat) as a filler for the reasons you mention.

I use the 1/4 piece of TP in .30 cals. Have never used it in smaller or larger caliber cases.

I use Excel for my data sheets. Pics get imported/pasted into the field where the target appears on the data sheet. If you think it might be useful and your interested; I'll email you a copy with the file attached. If your familiar with Excel, you can modify any fields you desire.

I noted your Avatar; are you a member of the Old Crow Association?

Mustang

[JKH]

Mustang,

Slow ignition or hangfires is an indication that a magnum primer is needed.for your '06 loads, the TP filler is most likely why you didnt experience "duds" from lack of ignition, in .308 cases and smaller there is no issue and standard (at least CCI LR) primers work well. I have about 45 rounds of '06 loaded with Nosler 155grn Palma match bullets to pull down and load with a different powder, or transfer the loads to fresh cases with CCI 34's, I tried some.of these loads in a new to me 03A3 and they were worse than a flintlock! 2 were duds and when pulled down I found the primers had fired and blew the powder column into a partially fused mass discolered yellow/green jambed into the neck, I had the exact same experiencr using WC846 in ball equivalent loads in 7.62x54 Russian.

Jeff

[catmandu]

MUSTANG,
Yes I use Excel dailey. Please send a sample worksheet. Good ideas are where you find them.
As far as the Old Crow Association, no I'm not, I did work on EA-6s ECM / DECM and thats about as close as I got.

Thanks in Advance.

Paul in WNY

[MUSTANG]

I got out to the Range Saturday to do a Follow on Load Test of the WC846 with a Lee 170RNFP Cast Boolit. This is a follow on Load Test from the results published in Post #22 of this Thread. For this session, I increased the Charge of WC846 from the previous 21 Grains, to a load of 31 Grains. Temperatures were on the warm side (106 Degrees) so there may be some shooter error creeping into the results, but I was consciously trying to ensure consistency.

This Load Test string had an increased average velocity of almost 700fps; but it appears that accuracy suffered as the previous 2 ¼” X 3” group has apparently opened to 4” x 3 ½ “. It also appears that the larger Powder Charge is resulting in a higher impact for the group. A comparison of the previous group and Saturdays Group appears blow (Click on picture to enlarge).






My Load Data record for last Saturdays Test is attached as a PDF.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Given the larger group on Saturday, I think I will drop down the Charge for another round of testing. Since I was able to avoid the delayed ignition problem I originally encountered, I am planning to conduct two 10 round tests.
String #1:
Charge of 26 Grains of WC846; with the ¼ sheet of TP as a case filler. Continue to use CH Taper Crimp Die.
String #2:
Go back to the original 21 Grains of WC846; but use two (2) ¼ sheets of TP as a case filler (That would be ½ sheet for those quick in the Math Department, but I will still cut into ¼ sheets and place two in the case). Continue to use CH Taper Crimp Die. Thoughts are this may avoid the slow ignition problem and keep the same or better accuracy than encountered back in my July Load Test without going to a Magnum Primer.


Mustang

[MUSTANG]

I had debated not posting this information since I know that there is more to work on than just the Powder adjustments. But; I thought some readers might get some use out of this, even if it’s a simple “Been there Myself”.

While out Saturday, I also shot another style Boolit with the WC846 load of 31 Grains. I hand weighed and selected some RCBS 165 – Sil Boolits from a lot I cast last Spring. Average Velocity was 2055; but the group was atrocious. I new that this might be a problem because all of the Boolits are “Out of Round”, with the mold casting .307 one side - to .3095 when the Boolit is rotated 90 degrees. I’ve had this mold for at least 25 years stored in an ammo box so sending it back is not an option. I know that there are multiple Posts concerning out of Round in the Cast Boolits forum so I’ll do some research and reading to get some background and ideas before I proceed with ID/Corrective actions. Until the temperature here drops down into the 80’s at least, I’ll not be casting.

Below is the Target I shot (It would be very generous to call it a group).





My Load Data used is attached as a PDF.

I think I’ll take some risk of wasting my time and drop the charge down to 26 Grains and see what if any affect that may have.

Mustang.

[MUSTANG]

We had a drop in temperatures Saturday Morning (High 90’s) so I got out to do some follow on testing of WC846 in the 30-06. I loaded 10 round strings for two other Cast Boolit types, the first a Lyman 311644 190 Grain Silhouette mold (old style purchased back in mid 1980’s) and the second an RCBS 308-165-Sil (165 Grain) mold.

I loaded the Lyman 311644 with a modest charge of 21 grains of WC846 and topped it with a ¼ sheet of TP (Double Ply Toilet Paper). The 9 round group produced was about 2 ¼ x 2 ¼ inches from 75 Yards, average velocity of 1539 fps. One round failed to chamber, with the nose section of the boolit having definite visible engraving from the lands and groves present from attempting to close the bolt on my M1917. This same round easily chambered in my 1903A3. Looks as if I will have to seat the Lyman 311644 slightly deeper than the 3.215 OAL for these loads (when intended for the M1917). I experienced the same problem with two other rounds (different loads and powder).

I loaded the RCBS 165 Sil somewhat hotter using 26 grains of WC846, and topped it with a ¼ sheet of TP (Double Ply Toilet Paper). The 13 rounds fired produced a group produced about 2 ½ x 3 ½ inches from 75 Yards, average velocity of 1725 fps. Need to explore using a heavier charge than 21 grains of WC846 with this boolit. After firing, all of the cases had heavy smoke from the shoulder are forward; some all the way back to the base of the case. This indicates that there is insufficient pressure to expand the brass to form a good gas seal which might be attributed to the Boolits being sized to .309; or insufficient powder to develop the required pressure. The RCBS mold will require some work since Boolits cast from it are out of round.

A visual comparison of the two strings follows (Click on the picture to enlarge).






I believe for me there is more work to do with these cast boolit types to get higher velocities and tighten groups before I move on to using them in my gas operated M-1 Garands and M-14 type rifles. Should give me something to do as we move into the fall and winter.



My Load Data Sheets for this Test session are attached as PDF’s.


Mustang.

[JKH]

Hey Mustang,

You will definitely need to increase your load, I get full function in my Polytech M14S using 25 grains WC846, the '06 will require more to cycle a Garand.

Jeff

[MUSTANG]

JKH:

I have reloaded a few more test loads and will run them over the Chronograph using the M1917 for testing. These are running a little hotter, in anticipation of moving to Tests in the Garand if they show acceptable velocity and groups. Hopefully get out to do that this Saturday.

Catmandu:

I responded to your PM.



In your PM you mentioned that you had a Garand in .308. Was this one of the ones converted by the US Navy to use aboard ships; or is it a Garand that was reworked to .308 by some of the "Civilian Armory's" that have been established to rebuild surplus military firearms?

I never had a .308 Garand, but did buy some of the Stainless Steel Inserts to temperately modify the Garand chamber to .308 (These were available and "Popular" In the mid 1980's. They were not "Sub Munition" cartridge holders that allow shooting a pistol caliber round; rather a filler of the chamber to shape it to fit the .308 Cartridge profile).

I had some success in HR, IH, and Springfield Garands I had at the time, and they all shot well with the inserts. Feeding was an off and on problem though, particularly in rapid fire strings. You used a Broken Shell Extractor to remove the insert when you wanted to return to .30-06 use.

I swore off these inserts when I loaned one to a buddy who wanted to give it a try in his Springfield Garand before he bought one. Well, long story short, he tried to extract it unsuccessfully, and I also tried the same unsuccessfully. Finally had to pay a gunsmith $50.00 to use a Chamber reamer to clean it out. (Back when $50.00 was a significant sum) At the time surplus 30-06 was plentiful at Gun Stores, Gun Shows, and through CMP; and relatively inexpensive in the scheme of things ,so I decided to remove them from my rifles and have had not used one since.

Mustang

[catmandu]

The Garand I just picked up at CMP is new. It has a new Criterion Barrel, new walnut stock, and is chambered for 308 Win, (not NATO). No insert.

Other than needing to be shot to break it in it seems to be perfect.
I already have 2 '06's so I figured a 308 would make sence. I could segregate the brass for the bolt guns and the 308 for the gas gun. That way I can use the Lee collett die for the bolt gun fodder without worring about mixing it up with the gas gun ammo. I can also size the expander to the gas gun so I won't upset the shoulders.

Paul in WNY

[MUSTANG]

Well got out to the Range yesterday and had a bit of success using WC846 and RCBS 308-165-Sil Cast Boolits. (Click on Photo to enlarge).





These 10 round shot strings were tested in a .308 Bolt action rifle. The results are good enough that I think I'll load another 10 rounds of each and fire from one of my M1A's in the next week or so and see what we get. Will publish the loads after we get a chance to test fire them in the M1A (M-14).

Looking at the data collected, although we got some pretty fair groups, there is quite a spread in velocity for these two loads. I did not use an over powder 1/4 sheet TP (Toilet Paper) wad this time. Looks like I may add a TP over powder wad for the M1A test to see if we can reduce the velocity spread.


I have attached the Load Data Sheets for each load as a PDF file. (Click on the PDF Icon to open).


Mustang