WC846 in .308 & .30-06 for semi-autos?

[JKH]

Hey Guys,

I would like to load some quantity of plinking/practice loads for my semi-auto's (M14s, Garand's, AR10, FAL), I have 16 pounds of WC846 which is awesome for jacketed bullet loads.

I am hoping this powder will be useable for cast lead and reliably cycle my auto-loaders with reasonable (small/cheap loads!) loads. I would like to use my LEE boolit that was designed by Ed Harris for the7.62x39 primarily but also can use my LEE 180 grain boolit (I prefer the other as the profile will theoretically give me beter feeding characterstics).

If I can get anywhere near normal military ball accuracy it would be great, I have lots of standard ammo stocked up and lots of components but would like to practice/last on the cheap, it aint like the old days when I could buy Argentine .308/7.62 ball for under $150/1000 rouunds shipped

Also, before anyone pipes up, I HAVE searched the board for weeks looking for info, especially Bruce B's post on the M1A/M14, so far no good

Any help will be greatly appreciated

Jeff

[MUSTANG]

I have settled on 43.3 Grains of WC846 for my 30-06 loads; this duplicates the M2 Ball ballistics for me in my M1917 rifle.

__________________________________________________ ______________

The following data was collected using a 43.8 Grain charge of WC846, just slightly a little to hot for M2 Ball ballistics. Velocity Chronographed with a "Chrony".



.30-06 - Using Russian 147 Grain Pulled Jacketed Bullet - WC-846 Powder

Date: 20-May-12 OAL 3.340
Temp: ~ 95 degrees Gas Check: N/A
Wind: 5mph Lube: N/A
Wind Direction: From 12 O'Clock Powder: WC846
Rifle: M-1917 Powder Charge: 43.8Gr
Action: Bolt (Iron Sights) Kicker: N/A
Barrel Twist 1 in 10" Kicker Charge: N/A
Bullet Sized to: 0.308
Bullet: Russian Ball .308


Bullet Speed in Feet Per Second (Chrony Chronograph)
1 2790
2 2833
3 2750
4 2770
5 2751

Avg (Mean)Speed: 2779
Standard Deviation:
Spread in FPS: 83
Computed RPM: 200074

Notes:
1. Shooting Distance was ~ 75 Yards.
2. Used bullets pulled & resized to .308 from Russian Mosian Nagant Ammo.

[catmandu]

Mustang,
Thanks for the details.
One question, Did you have to use a magnum primer? Other posts I've read have issues with hang fires with this powder, especially in cold areas.

Some recommend a CCI 34? Primer. I've never seen them.

Paul in WNY

[koehn,jim]

CCI 34 is a Nato spec primer and has a harder than normal cup. Many of the US Military rifle have free floating fireing pins. If the cartridge has any resistance going in you risk an out of battery detonation, hence the thicker cup. It prevents bad things.

[catmandu]

Thanks for the reply Jim, now that you mention that I remember reading about the primer caution and slam fires in Zediker's books.

Is the 34 primer a magnum? Or just thicker cup?

Paul

[JKH]

I forgot I had started this thread

I finally worked up a decent cast lead .308 load for my M14 clone with WC846, 25grns under a Lee 200 grn boolit, 1/4 sheet single ply TP rolled in a tube and a moderate crimp with Lee FCD, 50 yards offhand 5 shot group under 2", full cycling of rifle with bolt lock back on last round, gonna try the same load for '06 in my Garand's.

You do not need CCI 34's if your M14 or Garand is in proper working order with in spec parts, where slam fires occur it is from dropping the bolt on a chambered single round and almost assuredly even in those instances there was most likely a high primer, make sure all your primers are seated flush or below the head and dont load single rounds without a SLED or fed from a mag and keep your weapons in spec, you wont have to worry about slam fires or out of battery incidents with any primer.

Jeff

[catmandu]

Thank you for the info on the slam fires. Your advise makes sense.

Quite a difference between 25 and 43 grs. Well I guess this powder has a large sweet spot.

Paul

[swheeler]

I have settled on 43.3 Grains of WC846 for my 30-06 loads; this duplicates the M2 Ball ballistics for me in my M1917 rifle.

__________________________________________________ ______________

The following data was collected using a 43.8 Grain charge of WC846, just slightly a little to hot for M2 Ball ballistics. Velocity Chronographed with a "Chrony".



.30-06 - Using Russian 147 Grain Pulled Jacketed Bullet - WC-846 Powder

Date: 20-May-12 OAL 3.340
Temp: ~ 95 degrees Gas Check: N/A
Wind: 5mph Lube: N/A
Wind Direction: From 12 O'Clock Powder: WC846
Rifle: M-1917 Powder Charge: 43.8Gr
Action: Bolt (Iron Sights) Kicker: N/A
Barrel Twist 1 in 10" Kicker Charge: N/A
Bullet Sized to: 0.308
Bullet: Russian Ball .308


Bullet Speed in Feet Per Second (Chrony Chronograph)
1 2790
2 2833
3 2750
4 2770
5 2751

Avg (Mean)Speed: 2779
Standard Deviation:
Spread in FPS: 83
Computed RPM: 200074

Notes:
1. Shooting Distance was ~ 75 Yards.
2. Used bullets pulled & resized to .308 from Russian Mosian Nagant Ammo.

Mustang; those velocities sure seem high to me, even with your 4+ in of barrel? Could be the bullet or rifle, Russian 147 gr are .310" diameter? Must have a way faster lot of 846?

4-14-2003-30-06 Savage 110
150 gr speer
wlrm primer
45.0-846-2626 fps
46.0-2670
47.0-2700

[MUSTANG]

Mustang,
Thanks for the details.
One question, Did you have to use a magnum primer? Other posts I've read have issues with hang fires with this powder, especially in cold areas.

Some recommend a CCI 34? Primer. I've never seen them.

Paul in WNY

CatMandu:

I used a standard CCI 200 Large Rifle primer for these loads. These are from lot #M14Z; bought them about 23 years ago in a lot of 25,000. Consistency remains good with them; unfortunately I only have about 3000 left so it will be tiime for another large buy next year.

[MUSTANG]

Mustang; those velocities sure seem high to me, even with your 4+ in of barrel? Could be the bullet or rifle, Russian 147 gr are .310" diameter? Must have a way faster lot of 846?

4-14-2003-30-06 Savage 110
150 gr speer
wlrm primer
45.0-846-2626 fps
46.0-2670
47.0-2700

SWheeler:

I too was very surprised at the velocity achieved with this load based on the Charge Weight. Originally the Russian ball I used was .311 as I gauged it with a micrometer; so I had previously sized all of the Russian ball to .308 diameter using a LEE .308 sizer (for use in 30-06 and .308 rifles). Incorrect ball diameter is not the source of higher velocities for the charge weight.

I agree with your assumption that this lot of WC846 is burning a little hotter. As a point of sharing; I bought six (6) eight (8) pound jugs of this WC846 powder from Weidner's. They are all labeled as Lot # 61142. Just proves that there is significant wisdom in reducing by 10% to 15% on charge weight when developing a new load, or changing powder to a new lot. Also reinforces that a Chronograph "Is our Friend".


Once I have the 3000 Rounds of 30-06 loaded; I will be experimenting to develop a Cast Boolit load using WC846; first for my M1917, then for my 1903A3 and M-1's. Eventually moving on to my numerous .308 bolt guns and M-14's. As I think about it; I may need to procure another 48lbs of WC846 if the loads begin to look promising.

[swheeler]

SWheeler:

I too was very surprised at the velocity achieved with this load based on the Charge Weight. Originally the Russian ball I used was .311 as I gauged it with a micrometer; so I had previously sized all of the Russian ball to .308 diameter using a LEE .308 sizer (for use in 30-06 and .308 rifles). Incorrect ball diameter is not the source of higher velocities for the charge weight.

I agree with your assumption that this lot of WC846 is burning a little hotter. As a point of sharing; I bought six (6) eight (8) pound jugs of this WC846 powder from Weidner's. They are all labeled as Lot # 61142. Just proves that there is significant wisdom in reducing by 10% to 15% on charge weight when developing a new load, or changing powder to a new lot. Also reinforces that a Chronograph "Is our Friend".


Once I have the 3000 Rounds of 30-06 loaded; I will be experimenting to develop a Cast Boolit load using WC846; first for my M1917, then for my 1903A3 and M-1's. Eventually moving on to my numerous .308 bolt guns and M-14's. As I think about it; I may need to procure another 48lbs of WC846 if the loads begin to look promising.

Yes, I know lots can vary, have used several 846 from all three of the pull down guys, the lot I use now is two different numbers blended by me(16#) I guess the reason it caught my eye was I shoot 45.0 gr wc846 with 150 bullet in my 308, 2773 av fps and 43 grs with 168 SMK at 2562 av fps. I guess it shouldn't surprise me though, I've got two lots of 872 that are 200 fps apart at same loading in 264 WM. That is why start low and work up is sound advice, and yes a chrony has been my friend for a couple decades now.

[MUSTANG]

I received a PM asking if I would share how I intended to pursue a load for WC846 in my M1917 30-06 rifle. Thought other readers might be interested too; so the answer I provided in the PM follows. Each reader is responsible for their own loads, and they control the process they use at achieving their loads and the end results.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Given that I live in the Desert about 60 Miles north of Las Vegas, 110 degree days for the next 2 to 3 months will restrict my shooting because I have become to accustomed to AC or Shade and a fan so I will wait until September for temps to drop before I do range testing on developing my WC-846 Cast Boolit Loads.

As to your question of where and how I plan to approach the WC846 load development, I will:

1. Research what others have done; and use their shared data to form an educated set of assumptions in the load data planning. Cast Boolits has done a great service to the shooting community by creating a forum where we can share our individual findings. Currently there seems to be Very Limited data for WC-846 surplus powder; thus this particular string of postings.

2. My particular starting load for WC-846 in Cast Boolits will revolve around:
M1917 Rifle (has 1 in 10” twist)

Lee nominal 170 grain Flat Point Cast Boolit (C309-170-F)
RCBS nominal 165 grain Cast Boolit (.308-165-Sil)
RCBS nominal 200 grain Cast Boolit (.308-200-Sil)
Use of .014 thick Aluminum gas checks I fabricate myself
Use of Carnuba Red lube in my Lyman 450 sizer.
I will initially size all cast boolits to .310 for this rifle.

3. My first loads will be derived from “Extrapolating” a low end load through analysis of available data. In this case I will rely heavily upon a Cast Boolit load book I acquired many years ago, the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual Number 1 , published in 1986. This particular book lists a variety of loads (but not military surplus powders) for the RCBS 165 Sil boolit, plus others. I have extracted selected data for .308 and 30-06 from the manual below this discussion. I also refer to my copy of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook – Third Edition , published March 2002 (eleventh Printing). I find a comparable weight and shape boolit; and validate that the loads are similar for published data. If not, then a large dose of additional caution is required. I keep in mind that boolit design can have significant impact; as an example the bearing surface of a Loverin design is considerably different than an RCBS Sil designed bullet.

4. It is important to understand the general relationship of Powder Burning speeds if you seek to extrapolate load data. An example of a “Burn Rate” comparison Chart can be found at: http://home.hiwaay.net/~stargate/powder/powder.htm There are also many discussions and published data on Powder Burn Rates here in the Cast Boolit site. In this Chart we can see that WC-846 (#158) and BLC2 (#157) are close to the same burn rate. Comparisons must be made within the same chart; do not use a reference number on one chart to compare to a powder in another chart. Compare Powders, and not numbering sequence. Keep in mind that Surplus powders may be faster or slower from lot to lot.

5. As I review the data from the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual Number 1, I see that only in the .308 Rifle Data can I compare BLC-2 to SR4759; but SR4759 can be found in all four loadings I listed (both in .308 and 30-06). Since BLC-2 is close in Burn Rate to WC846; and I am able to compare BLC2 to SR4759; I can extrapolate for a WC846 load for these bullet types.

6. TO BE SAFE, I am going to go to the lowest data/velocity in this extrapolation; a charge of 21.0 grains for both the .308 and the 30-06 in the SR4759 powder listings. Since 4759 is slower than WC846, and I am going to the lowest charge, I should be safe.

7. BOTTOM LINE: I will prepare 5 rounds of 30-06 both the Lee 170gr and the RCBS 165gr boolits using 21.0 grains of WC846 as a starting point. I will then shoot these at ~100 yards over a chronograph. All rounds will be observed for “Pressure signs”. From these first groupings and the recorded velocity achieved, I will then start load development for optimum accuracy and velocity. When I get to what I believe to be the best mix of velocity and accuracy; I start shooting 10 round strings to validate results are consistent. Once I have completed this for the 165gr and 170gr Boolits; I will start over with the RCBS 200gr Sil boolit.


RCBS Cast Bullet Manual #1 (Printed December 1986)

For RCBS 30-165-Sil Cast Bullet in .308 Rifle
Powder - BLC2 27.0 Grains = 1939fps
25.0 Grains = 1799fps

IMR SR 4759 25.0 Grains = 2073fps
23.0 Grains = 1908fps

*Keep in mind that SR4759 is a “Faster” Powder than BLC2



For RCBS 30-180-Sil Cast Bullet in .308 Rifle
Powder - BLC2 Not Listed for this Cast Bullet

IMR SR 4759 23.0 Grains = 1978fps
21.0 Grains = 1831fps



For RCBS 30-165-Sil Cast Bullet in .30-06 Rifle
Powder - BLC2 Not Listed for this Cast Bullet

IMR SR 4759 23.0 Grains = 1880fps
21.0 Grains = 1743fps


For RCBS 30-180-Sil Cast Bullet in .30-06 Rifle
Powder - BLC2 Not Listed for this Cast Bullet

IMR SR 4759 26.0 Grains = 2013fps
24.0 Grains = 1871fps

[catmandu]

Mustang,
Thank you for sharing you step by step process. It is very helpful to have another reloaders input on how to safely decide what next load to try. When I reload its just me, there is no one to validate any conclusions I may have erroneously drawn.

I also checked the sources you mentioned, the RCBS CB manual and the Lyman CBM. I also checked Hodgdon’s 25th and though they list loads for BL-C2 for jacketed, they do not list it under the CB load section. I have done many searches and have an Excel spreadsheet of loads used primarily from this forum or from links provided. I then can review trends and throw out any out liers and stay with conservative proven loads. I asked for your input because I have learned that there is a reason certain powders are not listed.

Yesterday I found a good article that has a good list of loads that were tried by the author and lists his relative success – at least in his guns. His loads are for the M1 Garand, the reliable cycling of the Garands action require a bit more powder than our bolt actions would. His listed loads with popular CBs are all in the 30’s. Here is the link.
http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/m1garandcast.htm

The index for this is found at:
http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/...llowspage1.htm

There is also another Ought Six article there.
http://hgmould.gunloads.com/casting/oughtsixcast.htm

Thank you for you help and maybe we can share our results as we move along.

Paul in WNY

[JKH]

Hey Guys,

Just a note on WC846 loads in .30-06, this is pertaining to jacketed bullet loads but may effect cast loads as well.

I noticed a few months back that some ball equivalent loads for 7.62 Russiam had hangfires and a few failed to fire, I pulled these down and found yellowish/green clumps in the powder amd asumed contamination from case lube. I shot some ball equivalent .30-06 loads today with the exact same issues and assumed lube or maybe even that the powder is going bad, I have shot at least 1K .308 ball loads anf perhaps 100 cast loads in my M14 clone with zero issues so was stumped.

I just did a lot of research on the web and found many shooters with the same issues in .30-06, seems that a magnum primer (like CCI#34's) is necessary for proper ignition of this ball powder in cases larger than .308 when the powder is at the front of the case.

I did try 846 in some '06 cast loads in my Garand but did not have any hang/misfires, nor any in my much reduced .308 M14 cast loads, I believe because of using either 3/4 grain dacron tuft or 1/4 sheet rolled up single ply toilet paper cylinders in both calibers to keep the charge tight to the case head/flash hole.

I will try CCI#34's for my '06 jacketed ball equiv loads and see if it helps, they may also prove to be very benefical for cast loads and eliminate the need for fillers. This may be why I saw a major accuracy improvement in my cast .308 M14 loads after adding fillers, they went from roughly 10"-12" groups down to 1.5 moa at 50 yards with all other variables being equal.
This powder certainly has potential but it seems being a ball type powder, AND have a flash deterent coating, makes it more difficult to get reliable/consistent ignition than true BL(C)-2

Hope this helps, post any follow up data/experience for us to ponder, personally I am not trying any cast '06/Garand loads till I see if I can get reliable jacketed ball equiv loads to work, I'm fairly content with my cast .308 M14 WC846 loads for now : )

Jeff

[catmandu]

Jeff,
Thanks for the good info, I know I will try Dacron with WC846.
I also read some posts about hangfires and recommend using a Magnum primer, or a specific primer that had no issues with a specified load.

What I don't understand is the clumps you found in your pull down loads. Since they were not fired the primer is not the issue. Have you checked your powder jug, or measure to see if they are the source?

Paul in WNY

[JKH]

Hey Paul,

The rounds that were pulled down I had ASSUMED to have dead primers, when in fact the HAD fired. I believe the clumping and yellow/green discoloration is a result of the gases generated by the primer, the clumps were always at the base of the bullet and were actually fused, all remaining powder was normal.

I did check my jug of powder by shaking thoroughly and dumping out several pounds, I slowly poured it back into the jug, no clumps, no discoloration, no unusual odor. I also contacted Jeff Bartlett and confirmed all this.

So, at least for my lot of WC846 it definitely will require a magnum primer, I have a jug of WC846T that I may try with standard large primers, it does not have a flash deterrent so may light much easier, otherwise I am going to try WC844

Jeff

[catmandu]

Jeff,
That makes more sence. I looked back at the article I linked to above and quoting Mr.Carlson -

"My trials included using standard rifle primers and comparing the new CCI # 34 primers in the same loads and I found for the most part the CCI did a better job. In some cases, cutting the groups in half. These primers are specially made for 7.62 mm NATO, 30-06 & 7.62X39 mm ammunition. "
So your conclusion makes sence.

Good Shooting.

Paul in WNY

[MUSTANG]

Catmandu:

I thought I would ride along on some of the thoughts and recommendations that both you and JKH have made. Seems to be a common observation that a light Cast Boolit load using WC846 will require a case filler, so I incorporated that into my initial loading today. Also, since I had some time to take pictures along the way; I have incorporated some step by step documentation of using a filler as I executed this load. Hopefully it can prove useful to others watching this thread (both new and old to the Cast Boolit endeavor).

Mustang


Click on each Picture to Enlarge and read text
























Additional Pictures appear on next thread posted.

[MUSTANG]

Catmandu:

The rest of the Pics follow:










Well - Now waiting for the opportunity to send them down range.

[JKH]

Very nice Mustang!

The simplest way I found to use 1/4 sheets of TP in my M14 .308/7.62 loads, is to roll the sheet lentghways into a tube slightly smaller than the case neck, then insert just prior to seating the boolit, the TP tube sticks out of the neck slightly and the boolit nicely compresses it against the powder charge while basically filling the entire air space.

My M14 loads went from 8 to 10 moa @ 50 yards (rested), to 1moa consistently. I hope to try new loads in '06 for my Garands soon and will most likely use the "wad" method due to the greater space in the '06 and will most likely go to a magnum primer, first will be M2 equivalent loads with magnum primers and tracers rounds with the bases plugged by hot glue, if I can get WC846 to behave with CCI 34's my loads will be less than 15 cents each : )

Please post your groups Mustang, what rifle will you be testing these loads in?