They said it couldn't be done

[AriM]

ari; i,m realy interested in ur process. are u doing any 38 cal by any chance?
i would like to try these at rifle velocitys. i think the little white
flakes are borax. i,ve got good vibes about ur process.
jb

thanks JB, the flecks are not borax....they are silica based

thank you for the encouragement...i hope it proves out, as well

[AriM]

bad news....shot my thursday night steel match last night....it's outdoor...the range was wet, and the air was humid and cold....little more smoke than I would have liked...I have to track down what is doing that....really bummed....I am pretty sure it's not the powder....I have been using the same load since the beginning of testing....5 grains of American Select....the odd thing is that I tested in high humidity at the indoor range, and I had no trouble.....my control group smoked as well....oddly I also had 2 primers fail to light and a really strange FTF....riddled with problems last night, where I usually have NONE!!! grrrrrrrummmmble

have no fear, I will get to the bottom of it....maybe with some, much appreciated help, from you guys....

[ebg3]

Am Sel. seems like a good choice, I used 8lbs of it, year before last, with .40 loads before switching to e3. I think I did most of my shooting with jacketed bullets and don't really remember too much smoke. The e3 smokes but not as much as Clays or Titegroup and it seems to be working well with my cast boolits. So far I've used about 12lbs of e3 with no troubles in my .40.
EG

[AriM]

Am Sel. seems like a good choice, I used 8lbs of it, year before last, with .40 loads before switching to e3. I think I did most of my shooting with jacketed bullets and don't really remember too much smoke. The e3 smokes but not as much as Clays or Titegroup and it seems to be working well with my cast boolits. So far I've used about 12lbs of e3 with no troubles in my .40.
EG

American Select is a "new generation" shotgun powder....it's claim to fame is it's lack of smoke.....I have never had smoke issues with it before....I have run at least a dozen pounds of it over the last year or so.....the only thing to note on the powder would be that it's a bit on the fast side....fast single base....dunno if that could be flashing the lube, under certain conditions....but it's really odd that the smoke wasn't an issue until yesterday (when it was outdoor, cold and wet)....I wonder if the powder was damp?? could that lead to more smoke? I just don't get it....maybe the cold temp made the powder burn hotter/faster and that flashed the lube? ugggg....gotta track it down....my guess is that it has something to do with the paraffin or the white grease

VV n310 is a great powder in 45auto, but it's to specific for my general testing (i think)....I like the American Select, because it has TONS of uses, and is very safe....

[rjbishop]

AriM,

Interesting process you have going. If I might suggest, please try this process on 9mm projectiles. 9mm is one of the hardest calibers to avoid leading (IMHO)- much more difficult than .45. I believe it's the higher pressures that make 9mm difficult, unless you slow them WAY down.

[AriM]

AriM,

Interesting process you have going. If I might suggest, please try this process on 9mm projectiles. 9mm is one of the hardest calibers to avoid leading (IMHO)- much more difficult than .45. I believe it's the higher pressures that make 9mm difficult, unless you slow them WAY down.

thank you for the feedback....9mm will be my next test....I was considering buying a new pistol in 9mm, and dedicating it to testing....I imagine that 9mm in major power factor, would indeed be the next logical series of tests....I would like to make sure it's all safe first....45auto seemed like the safest place to conduct the first series of tests....I am going to be experimenting with a new boolit design and a modification of the lube, hopefully starting on the 8th.

I have some alternate products on the way, and they should show up around then....I am open to any and all suggestions....

I was considering a ruger sr9 or a 1911 in 9mm as the 9mm platform....suggestions are welcome....

[runfiverun]

ari.
i suggest a new thread for the 9mm it's gonna have a whole different set of problems.
if your lube works in the 9 well it should save you a lot of work in other cals.

[rjbishop]

An SR9 is a good choice simply because the cost is very favorable- it's a decent gun but you have to deal with the rather stiff double-action trigger. A bit of polishing, and it can be very smooth. The SR9 is a very comfortable gun however- fits like a glove in most hands. It's also reasonably accurate.

1911 style would be more expensive, but you might enjoy it a LOT more if you use it for competition.

[SciFiJim]

This thread is very interesting. I don't shoot near the volume you do now, but who knows.

OK, so far I have figured out.

LLA - a few drops to make it sticky
paraffin
white grease - lithium?
alcohol - as a solvent and to speed drying
silica based pixie dust to make it sparkly.

seems like it needs something to make the white grease blend in.

temp control to speed drying time - probably near vapor temp of alcohol.

How good is my guess so far?

[runfiverun]

don't forget a binder/plasticizer there jim.

[ANeat]

I was considering a ruger sr9 or a 1911 in 9mm as the 9mm platform....suggestions are welcome....

For a 9 let me suggest a Springfield XD, pretty good trigger, high capacity, good "gamer" gun, cut rifled barrel that is cast friendly.


Come spring time I pick up the shooting pace, I shoot a lot of bullseye and would be interested in trying you lube, Initial tests would be off a Ransom rest @ 50 yards to see if there is any loss of accuracy. (45acp)

I have a combination now that is accurate and gets zero leading but Im not past trying something new

[AriM]

ari.
i suggest a new thread for the 9mm it's gonna have a whole different set of problems.
if your lube works in the 9 well it should save you a lot of work in other cals.

I wanted to get to 9mm down the road, but I suppose now is a good time to start....I imagine the challenges are going to be totally different....I was sort of dreading it actually....you are right, a new thread would be best...

[AriM]

An SR9 is a good choice simply because the cost is very favorable- it's a decent gun but you have to deal with the rather stiff double-action trigger. A bit of polishing, and it can be very smooth. The SR9 is a very comfortable gun however- fits like a glove in most hands. It's also reasonably accurate.

1911 style would be more expensive, but you might enjoy it a LOT more if you use it for competition.

I have shot the sr9 a few times....in many ways the profile feels a lot like a 1911.....it sits nice and low, and is really easy to shoot well....and the price is hard to beat....I wish there were parts available for them.....looks like I will have to live with it "as is"....the trigger is simply awful....but then again I am spoiled by the pistols I have....I don't have many, but what I have is quality....and built to my needs...

I would get another 1911 in 9mm....but the dan wesson PM7 chambered in 9mm is just a bit out of my spending limit right now....I have shot the dan wesson 1911's before, and IMO they are every bit as nice as a Baer....I will NEVER buy another springfield, the one I have is perfect, but I replaced every single part on it....out of the box it was a massive disappointment....

I think the sr9 is the way to go....it's a more common gun, affordable, reliable, accurate, easy to shoot and seems to represent the working man's pistol....and if I destroy it in testing, I won't lose any sleep over it....

[AriM]

This thread is very interesting. I don't shoot near the volume you do now, but who knows.

OK, so far I have figured out.

LLA - a few drops to make it sticky
paraffin
white grease - lithium?
alcohol - as a solvent and to speed drying
silica based pixie dust to make it sparkly.

seems like it needs something to make the white grease blend in.

temp control to speed drying time - probably near vapor temp of alcohol.

How good is my guess so far?

the white grease I use in this formula is a synthetic marine grease...

but everything you listed is in there.....bunch of other things though....

binder
"plasticiser"
lubricant
and some other goodies

I actually posted the formula in another thread, a few weeks ago....
it's been modified a bit, but not by much

the real key here is the process though....I imagine a lot of different base chemicals could be used or substituted, and the results would be similar....

you are right on the money so far though....testing is going slow this week....waiting for a few new items to come in the brown truck....oh and I got booked on a gig (my real job), so I haven't done the round count this week I wanted to....but I hope I can get in at least 2 range trips before the end of the week...

thank you for your interest, and support....

[AriM]

For a 9 let me suggest a Springfield XD, pretty good trigger, high capacity, good "gamer" gun, cut rifled barrel that is cast friendly.


Come spring time I pick up the shooting pace, I shoot a lot of bullseye and would be interested in trying you lube, Initial tests would be off a Ransom rest @ 50 yards to see if there is any loss of accuracy. (45acp)

I have a combination now that is accurate and gets zero leading but Im not past trying something new

i really like the XD's....shot them MNAY MANY times....they are very picky about ammo though....they seem to not like TC, SWC's, c/t's, or anything without a "ball" profile....


would be happy to send you some samples to try out, once testing is complete


I doubt there will be any huge benefit with my method....the main advantage to the way I do things, is not an "increase" in accuracy (although they are EXTREMELY accurate), but rather the amount I can do at one time.....and the fact that I can do them in such a short amount of time....I still think that small batches would be more cost efficient, and less hassle in a lube/sizer....my quest was more about finding a solution to a problem, rather than re-inventing the wheel....

the only thing that would limit the amount of boolits you could do at once, would be the size of the hoppers....I looked into a commercial grade unit a few days ago....with that I could probably process tens of thousands at a time....total time to process and end up with a loadable product, would probably still be about 30 min. (give or take)

[ANeat]

I know I had an XD45 that didnt like SWC, but TC were good. I cant recall what I fed the XD9 I used to have.

As for the accuracy I really didnt expect an increase, just hope there isnt a loss of accuracy.

Ease of application and no loss of accuracy sounds good to me

What are you using for hoppers now? Have you tried a 5 gallon bucket? Are we talking a gentle roll/tumble?

[AriM]

I know I had an XD45 that didnt like SWC, but TC were good. I cant recall what I fed the XD9 I used to have.

As for the accuracy I really didnt expect an increase, just hope there isnt a loss of accuracy.

Ease of application and no loss of accuracy sounds good to me

What are you using for hoppers now? Have you tried a 5 gallon bucket? Are we talking a gentle roll/tumble?

I am using a series of LARGE vibratory tumblers....each stage is for a different part of the process....each tumbler contains a different kind of media....one stage is for cleaning, one stage is for lube application, one stage is for drying and application of the little flecks....I had another stage for polishing, but have found that only makes them look shiny....no benefit to accuracy or reduction in wear....the media I use does not mar the boolits, and the tumbler motors have reduced power....also the time in each station is only enough to accomplish the task (very short)

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS YET!!!!! I am concerned about the safety of the process. One of the steps involves applying denatured alcohol, under convection heat. If you try to do this w/o venting the hopper, or having adequate ventilation....well let's add it up

1. Alcohol vapors
2. heat
3. sealed container
4. vibrating electric motor

5. BOMB!!!

It is absolutely critical that you have laminar flow between the heat inlet and exhaust outlet.....there are reasons I am not releasing the process yet....it is dangerous....I know most folks here are smart, and handle inherently dangerous products/process on a daily basis....but then there are also guys out there that whack the bolt of a 50 call with a hammer, to get a live round to chamber....I don't want blood on my hands....I respect, above ALL else, safety (humans and their gear)

I have had some issues with XD's and TC boolits...SWC is an absolute no, but the TC's were prone to "stem bind"....not every round, but enough so that I didn't wind up buying an XD....it's a shame because I LOVE the xd...it feels good, it shoots better than I can, I has an AMAZING array of safety features and it's reasonably priced....but i think that feeding issues take it out of contention for testing...

I know that out of the box 1911's can have feeding issues, but the beauty of their design is in it's simplicity....if you have feeding issues in a 1911, they are very easy to correct....hell my number one 1911 will even devour short/flat wadcutters, I bet it would even chamber unloaded cases (properly sized, of course)....

oh man this is getting so far off topic....runfiverun was right about starting a new thread for this

well maybe not, discussing feeding issues is directly related to the performance of my boolits...I am leaning towards the sr9, simply because of cost....but hopefully I have a job coming up in a few weeks....and that will get me enough for that Dan Wesson PM7 (in 9mm).....I considered selling my number one pistol (handmade 1911 in .45), but I could never bring myself to do it....I bled, sweat and cried to build that gun....

[AriM]

had a major revelation yesterday, while testing.....the smoking problem I experienced, during testing in the cold/wet conditions, was due to the boolit. Let me explain. I cast the batch in the test from WW lead. I water dropped. I usually do this for two reasons. Number one being the softening of the outer layers of lead, during sizing. Number two being that I like to load the boolits soon after casting/lubing (usually the next day). This isn't proper "cure time". I assumed that water dropping would help maintain hardness. Well here is the problem. It was cold and wet. I think the boolits were too hard and didn't obturate at my low charge weights.

Let's do the math. The approximate chamber pressure of my test load (5 grains of American Select) is 13,000 psi. Divided by 1440 and we get a value of approx. 9BHN. My water dropped WW boolits (in cold damp conditions) were probably double that. Not to mention shrinkage. I think the smoke problem was due to gas blow by and has nothing to do with the lube. It's the only explanation I can come up with.

Next string of tests will be done with a softer allow. Any thoughts on this?

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

Ari,
Did my package arrive?
DM

[David2011]

AriM,

You just made the light come on! I attampted another thread recently on the smoke issue. I got some useful replies but also got comments that the performance of the lube was more important so don't worry about smoke. Clearly some people even on this forum don't understand the issues surrounding dispensing 4 rounds/second. The importance of getting a hardness tester has become greater as I start blending more of my "other metals" and reduced availability of WW.

My standard pistol alloy for years has been 20 lb ww and 1/2 lb monotype. The monotype was added for castability more than for hardness. My boolits usually have plenty of time to age before loading so I'm probably shooting a relatively hard boolit for pistol.

My .45ACP loads are primarily a 200 gr. SWC at about 645 fps. That boolit is probably not obturating. Since it's for steel plate and the gun is moving around, smoke is not as much of a problem as it is for IPSC where there may be several targets very close together each getting 2 shots.

For IPSC my goto is a high capacity .40. A 180 gr, boolit makes major at 917 fps. Again, the alloy may be too hard for obturation even though the .40 is operating at higher pressure than the .45ACP. Dang! Last weekend I cast 1600 nice hard boolits for the .40. I think it's time to start experimenting with softer alloys. I have plenty of softer lead ingots which I got from a friend who died last summer so I have no way of knowing what's in them. The need for the hardness tester grows. At any rate I'll give the softer lead with some added tin a try and see if that affects the smoke.

David